12:30 - 13:00
Session Start: Sun Dec 05 12:15:06 1999
***Now talking in #defib
***ChanServ changes topic to 'Miekal And, Sun Dec 5@NoonPST [Jim].'
[12:24] Surd Collaboration, miekal, what is it to you?
[12:24] mIEKAL my relation to collaboration has changed over the years.
[12:24] Surd howso?
[12:24] mIEKAL more than half the things Ive done have been collabs..
[12:25] Surd Going back all the way?
[12:25] mIEKAL about 1990 or so I go to a point where I was not really interested in solo works any longer,
[12:26] mIEKAL it also coincided with the completion of a novel where the last line was, "& the next book will contain no recognizable words"
[12:26] mIEKAL I took about a 5 year break from all text.
[12:27] mIEKAL & since then Ive almost exclusively been doing collaborations.
[12:27] mIEKAL it locates my imagination outside of myself.
[12:27] mIEKAL that's the real attraction
[12:27] Surd Doesn't work do that anyway?
[12:28] mIEKAL solo work?
[12:28] Surd The object.
[12:28] billseye miekal, i'd like to know what that means literally, to "locate imagination outside of oneself" -- how is the thinking different?
[12:28] mIEKAL not for me at all,
[12:28] mIEKAL its about listening & the space between words sounds images
[12:28] David The collab becomes as much about the interaction of minds as about the resulting object
[12:28] mIEKAL that is where the imagination is located.
[12:29] mIEKAL Ive never been very object oriented anyway, tho Ive produced my share of books tapes videos cds etc.
[12:29] mIEKAL bill do I answer yr question?
[12:30] billseye yeah, i like the way it suggests concentrating the energy externally, in or between language sound image
[12:30] mIEKAL elizabeth & I have worked on a few things together.
[12:31] Surd Welcome, elizabeth.
[12:31] mIEKAL like duncan says responsibility is
[12:31] mIEKAL the ability to respond
[12:31] mIEKAL oddly tho, or maybe predictably, Ive done very little collaborating with men
[12:32] mIEKAL alan, is one of the first men Ive worked on a project with
[12:32] Surd How is that project going? What is it?
[12:32] mIEKAL well its alan's project, & Im a part of it, so maybe collaboration is the wrong word for it.
[12:33] billseye how do you relate this kind of relocation of self through collaboration to the "egoless" writings of folks like Mac Low -- does collaboration work a similar effect of focusing attention on the material?
[12:33] David this is the project at trace?
[12:34] mIEKAL the ego politics is largely what defines the success of any collaboration
[12:34] mIEKAL chance operation is only one way to "side step" those politics.
[12:34] elizabeth (thanks Surd for welcome -- I am in & out of here tonight i'm afraid)
[12:34] billseye yeah i agree
[12:35] mIEKAL there will always be struggles associated with collaborating deeply with someone that arent all that different than living with the person
[12:35] mIEKAL a whole grabbag of issues & relations that have to be developed, nurtured enough to provide a footing
[12:36] mIEKAL for a creative project to take place.
[12:36] Surd Like what?
[12:36] billseye yes, that makes a lot of sense -- it's a social relation that grounds the process
[12:37] mIEKAL trust, respect, communicability
[12:37] Surd honesty
[12:37] mIEKAL basic tenets of good interactions.
[12:37] billseye there's an erotic engagement, as well, wouldn't you agree?
[12:37] mIEKAL but sometimes on internet, because its not face to face it takes more of an effort to make sure you have those things right.
[12:38] mIEKAL yes bill, it is. very much so.
[12:38] elizabeth I am interested in how things that do not get discussed & agreed, and things that do, both equally determine the outcome of most collabs I have been involved in.
[12:38] mIEKAL especially with those that you can only imagine what they are alike in real life.
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[12:38] STALION hi there people!
[12:38] billseye yes, elizabeth, that's so true
[12:39] STALION hi!
[12:39] mIEKAL maybe e, its the things that dont get observed have more of an effect.
[12:39] elizabeth Well but the 'rules of engagement' are also important miekal
[12:39] mIEKAL hi STALION
[12:39] billseye observed? you mean what's not available in the interaction (a face, a voice, if e-based)?
[12:39] mIEKAL absolutely
[12:40] STALION hi mlEKAL, how are u?
[12:40] mIEKAL well, especially when working with someone whose use of english might have different assumptions & idioms
[12:40] billseye right, good example
[12:40] mIEKAL its easy to get segued into "what do you mean" kinds of threads
[12:41] billseye right...
[12:41] mIEKAL on the other hand, pure writing often times transcends everything
[12:42] billseye pure writing?
[12:42] mIEKAL if collaborators can work themselves into a space where the energy & momentum propels the writing forward
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[12:42] mIEKAL I just mean pure as opposed to sometime writing in a chat environment, writing & discussing as you go.
[12:42] mIEKAL only writing
[12:43] billseye i see
[12:44] Surd Are the cybele pieces you mentioned collaborative?
[12:44] mIEKAL I think the kinds of collabs Id like to get going would work toward transcending english
[12:44] mIEKAL the particular ones Im showing today are me & a vocalist named Allegra Fi Wakest
[12:45] mIEKAL we were partners also for 2 years.
[12:45] billseye m, i think the kind of collaborative projects you do are really well done and interesting -- i also see collaboration as one of the most celebrated, sometimes aggrandized, methods in today's art scene
[12:45] mIEKAL you mean like a collaboration for the sake of name dropping bill?
[12:46] mIEKAL so you can say you did a project with so & so?
[12:46] billseye i see a lot of "collaboration" oriented projects that are done just because it's cool to do so these days -- at least that's the impression i get -- wondering if you see that too?
[12:46] mIEKAL I get that feeling with a lot of what is called net.art
[12:47] elizabeth And sometimes people find these projects disappointing because their expectations are different from the other participants'.
[12:47] elizabeth disappointing to do, I mean.
[12:47] mIEKAL "cybele's fall toward grace"
[12:48] billseye yeah! disappointing because folks go in with grand ideas and enthusiasm (no problem, that's to be praised) but without thinking about the social issues that miekal mentioned earlier -- eyes wide shut, in other words -- and i've done this at times too, so i'm not setting my self apart by any means
[12:48] [brick] works for me
[12:49] billseye flash miekal?
[12:49] elizabeth I do like this!
[12:49] mIEKAL yes
[12:50] mIEKAL so these pieces run different speeds on different computers.
[12:50] Surd How did the collaboration go here?
[12:50] mIEKAL to a point.
[12:50] elizabeth Bill, I think sometimes people think they can have 2 meetings & that's a collaboration.
[12:50] mIEKAL these were the most basic collabs
[12:50] mIEKAL I recorded audio files of ali & then worked them into these pieces.
[12:50] billseye right elizabeth -- it gets gimmicky and fetishized -- superficial
[12:51] mIEKAL I would not use these as the best examples of intimate collaboration.
[12:51] billseye like the flash lean you're taking lately, miekal, and what you're doing with it...
[12:51] mIEKAL the literature nation project I did with maria damon is probably the most intricate & involved.
[12:51] billseye yeah, can you take us to a representative sample? or summarize?
[12:51] mIEKAL "telepresence"
[12:53] mIEKAL bill, there is an interview with bob holman at my bio site about literature nation
[12:53] billseye cool, i'll check it...
[12:53] mIEKAL this next one is the cybele piece which has been getting the most attention, it is so simple.
[12:54] mIEKAL "5 eye cat audio-hypnosis"
[12:54] Surd Is it important for people to read your collaborations as collaborations as opposed to solo work?
[12:55] mIEKAL Im interested, ultimately, in disappearing the Author.
[12:55] mIEKAL that's why Id like to do collabs with larger groups of people.
[12:55] mIEKAL like the love & war piece.
[12:55] elizabeth This is perhaps why the cat seems so good; the auditor can 'play' it themselves.
[12:55] mIEKAL or even weak blood in some ways.
[12:56] Surd What does 'disappearing the author' mean?
[12:56] billseye disappearing... go go go on -- isn't it more like dispersing or collectivizing the author?
[12:56] mIEKAL bill, dispersing, like planting a handful of wheat, I like that.
[12:57] mIEKAL collectivizing I have problems with
[12:57] billseye why?
[12:57] mIEKAL but then I live in a community where we are having such struggles with collectivization
[12:57] mIEKAL trying to be egalitarian about everything.
[12:58] mIEKAL I like collaborations where each person has strengths & weaknesses
[12:58] mIEKAL people fill in where their niche is best filled.
[12:58] billseye division of labor -- we're hoping to do that with sunbrella too
[12:59] mIEKAL "meme matter"
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Dec 5/99
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