13:30 - 14:00
[13:30] Surd Seattle was a big world wide protest of that this last week.
[13:30] mIEKAL this split that you are talking of didnt start with internet...
[13:30] mIEKAL it started with imperialism & capital
[13:31] mIEKAL apart from being devil's advocate tho.
[13:31] Surd There have been similar protests elsewhere in the world recently.
[13:31] mIEKAL dont you think there are more marginal forces represented on/thru internet than ever before.
[13:32] billseye i would say too that it's *because* you're right about what the Web is that we have to watch how it's used
[13:32] mIEKAL for the underground art world it especially seems true.
[13:32] mIEKAL but bill, it remains a hacker's medium
[13:33] mIEKAL & perhaps that is where our trust should lie in it as a medium.
[13:33] *[brick] thinks the hacker is coyote
[13:33] billseye yes, but where did i hear/read talk about how the police industries (CIA, etc.) are setting up monitoring devices to watch for interests on the web that go against "the public good" --
[13:33] mIEKAL the whole thing with etoys is a good example.
[13:33] billseye hacker = coyote --> perfect
[13:33] mIEKAL yes willey the
[13:34] mIEKAL when I did public art in madison
[13:34] mIEKAL in the 80s, someone at the mayors office
[13:34] mIEKAL said my file was 4 inches thick with
[13:35] mIEKAL data that had been collected about my actions.
[13:35] mIEKAL it has always been that way.
[13:35] billseye in other words, they fear the web as a means by which counter-groups can organize (the Zapatistas did it that way, evidently) and they want to control that
[13:35] [brick] i read an interesting argument re the monitoring devices employed by the police industries...instead of trying to stop it (which isn't possible), embrace it and monitor them right back...ushering in an age of absolute accountability
[13:35] mIEKAL & of course being a hacker's medium, these things are hackable as well.
[13:35] mIEKAL good dan
[13:36] [brick] interesting anyway, in that it addresses a certain inevitability
[13:36] mIEKAL but my interests are less orwellian, more geared toward poly local communities
[13:36] mIEKAL that are quite small...
[13:36] [brick] i am a firm believer in personal freedoms, but the monitoring tech is *happening*
[13:37] Surd Yes, although it's probably 10,000 inches thick and they can't find anything.
[13:37] mIEKAL so I wouldnt mind turning the discussion toward broadcasting..
[13:37] [brick] okee
[13:37] Surd What about it?
[13:38] billseye right, and my hope is that the *ingenuity* of our age in the tech world will constantly find ways to "back door" or bypass controls --
[13:38] mIEKAL well, just thinking out loud about it.
[13:38] Surd Certainly is part of the change in publishing, among other things.
[13:38] mIEKAL how one can start taking advantage of the performative aspects of online culture.
[13:39] mIEKAL & in particular, do we need passive audiences anymore
[13:39] Surd Relates to collaboration, also, doesn't it.
[13:40] mIEKAL is that a remnant of tv culture?
[13:40] [brick] some ppl prefer to be passive audiences, no?
[13:41] billseye i'm looking forward to the day when 99% of american households have internet hook-ups the same way they have tv's now -- but as with tv, most will be using it for shopping and other kinds of consumption
[13:41] mIEKAL but maybe 10 people participating is more fruitful than 1000 listening.
[13:41] mIEKAL I have a phone call, give me 5
[13:42] Surd k
[13:42] billseye part of a new media training in the schools has to be about *not* thinking of the computer as a new kind of tv!
[13:42] Surd That's where we come in, among other places.
[13:43] billseye agreed -- have to be ready for that question: "Hey, where's the remote?" -- ;)
[13:43] [brick] i have noticed a change in my families youngins....we used to joke at xmas that they would only say, "turn it on, plug it in, do it for me" and now at the computer they say, "i got it, okay, let me do it" which is very intense to see
[13:43] mIEKAL its a 2 way medium
[13:44] billseye that's encouraging, dan!
[13:44] mIEKAL & could really be developed alot more in that direction
[13:44] mIEKAL but Im also of the conviction that the new is always possible culturally as well as technically
[13:45] billseye i once had this idea for an easy chair with a computer attached -- for more comfortable interaction with the computer -- would sell probably -- instead of being "stationed" in front of it
[13:45] Surd I think technology is at least as much lead by the zeit as determining it, if not moreso.
[13:45] mIEKAL & I think the foundations for imagination evolving into directions we cant imagine
[13:46] mIEKAL are multiplied greatly by being able to access others which we have not had the opportunity to until recently
[13:46] mIEKAL zeit is?
[13:46] [brick] bill, i saw a split keyboard that you mount one half to the left armrest, and the other half to the right armrest for relaxed typing...also had foot operated mouse operations...full recline
[13:46] mIEKAL spirit?
[13:46] billseye yes, miekal, and it that sense i don't read your words as "new age fluff" because they're situated in more crystalline notions -- excuse the crystal pun
[13:46] billseye dan, that's it!
[13:46] Surd The decentralization and authorlessness, for instance, written about in the sixties and seventies is coming home to roost.
[13:47] mIEKAL jim, both of these notions have to be present for the kinds of imaginative iniatives Im speaking of.
[13:47] Surd zeitgeist=spirit of the age
[13:47] mIEKAL almost akin to indigenous pageantry
[13:48] mIEKAL where the individual disappears into a massive group project.
[13:48] mIEKAL but then there is the resume, & getting gigs, & becoming known.
[13:49] billseye i'm always amazed at how quickly and easily my students take to the idea of decentralization or authorlessness in electronic writing (the standard theory stuff) -- but i think they like it as a release from agency, ie, don't see it as a responsibility but as a release from having to be "an author" -- which is not all bad
[13:49] mIEKAL however one gets there.
[13:50] mIEKAL tho Im not trying to destroy writing as a genre or a need.
[13:50] mIEKAL or a responsibility
[13:50] mIEKAL but that there is something else now on our plate & we are the first one's to take a shot at
[13:50] mIEKAL defining it by our actions.
[13:51] mIEKAL I got asked to write a paper on what the schism is between online poetry & hard copy...
[13:51] Surd Don't you feel, though, that the individual is 'under erasure' in society quite enough as it is?
[13:52] mIEKAL where that is going & how my own work responds to that.
[13:52] mIEKAL in someways Im doing the same work Ive always done
[13:52] mIEKAL Im marginalized once more by the medium
[13:53] Surd Marginalized?
[13:53] billseye it think it has to be the same work...
[13:54] mIEKAL in the minds of experimental writers who dont consider online work in the same breath as book publication.
[13:54] mIEKAL or for instance my friend that I write with, Maria
[13:54] Surd Well, yes, the margin is largely a thing of the page.
[13:54] mIEKAL cannot get publication credits toward her salary
[13:54] mIEKAL for our online works....
[13:54] mIEKAL even tho it has generate a lot of attention & been in a national touring show.
[13:55] mIEKAL & even tho some of her online stuff is in juried mags.
[13:55] ***reiner has joined #defib
[13:55] billseye yes, miekal, it's all over Poetics too -- it's not taken too seriously, it's sometimes ridiculed, and i'm amazed at how some champions of resisting exclusivity are often the same ones who won't look twice at digital poetries
[13:56] mIEKAL hi reiner
[13:56] Surd Hi reiner
[13:56] reiner hi.hi.hi
[13:56] billseye hey reiner
[13:56] reiner i am too late ?
[13:56] Surd no
[13:56] mIEKAL that is one of the sadnesses of the poetics list.
[13:56] *[brick] would agree
[13:56] [brick] hi reiner
[13:56] mIEKAL & strange because loss & charles b were the ones who had most to do with starting it.
[13:56] reiner i had problems to get in
[13:57] mIEKAL & they are both very supportive of online lit kulcher
[13:57] billseye and it seems so obvious, yet any suggestions toward this exclusivity and marginalization from *within* the so-called marginalized crowd of a-g poetics is met with puzzled looks of incredulity
[13:58] mIEKAL everyone is guarding their positions, territories occupied
[13:58] billseye yes, those two are supportive, but i think a lot of the gen crowd just doesn't get it and doesn't want to have to learn the new vocab to get it -- abstract disjunctive poetry is tough enough
[13:58] mIEKAL the spirit of the mimeo revolution is no longer.
[13:58] [brick] backchannel one told me they don't take it seriously because there isn't any quality stuff yet (!)
[13:59] mIEKAL dan, that's just plain ignorant
[13:59] billseye exactly! what's "quality"?!
[13:59] mIEKAL no matter what one's aesthetics are
[13:59] *[brick] agrees
[13:59] [brick] it's so ignorant it's difficult to respond to
[13:59] mIEKAL but I sense that there is a politic going on as well
[13:59] mIEKAL what we are doing is very threatening in someways.

Dec 5/99
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