14:00 - 14:30
[14:00] billseye i think it's akin to the way concrete/visual poetry has been ignored, as simplistic, childish, etc.
[14:00] mIEKAL because we are radicalizing alot of the basics of avant garde poetics
[14:00] [brick] I would agree with the threatening, it feels that way to read responses
[14:00] mIEKAL by animating the page.
[14:00] mIEKAL we are enlarging the space that text can happen in, even what is a text becomes exploded.
[14:01] billseye yes, miekal, threatening also because it might be perceived as an attempt to "steal" the a-g spotlight from the hands of the landed, paper publishing elite
[14:01] mIEKAL & the powerbrokers like sun & moon, etc.
[14:01] [brick] subversive of the subversive?
[14:02] mIEKAL its like what means more, sales of books or hits on a website.
[14:02] mIEKAL a petty discourse.
[14:03] billseye exactly dan -- it does in some ways turn back into that crowd and advise waking up to what's out there, and that's not exactly comforting to anyone who thinks they have a clear sense of the "new" and where it exists
[14:03] Surd It's not just reluctance, it's lack of imaginative acclimatization.
[14:03] Surd And lack of critical vocabulary
[14:03] Surd and perspective.
[14:04] [brick] like the guy who traveled to the south pole only to find a note there that someone else arrived a month and a half previous.
[14:04] mIEKAL Ive long accepted these dichotomies, but I think their are ways to design openings or bridges
[14:04] Surd And resistance to the machine.
[14:04] mIEKAL which allow folks to continuously migrate or have interest in a medium which maybe will take a while to accept
[14:05] mIEKAL or for them to rise above whatever phobias theyre afflicted with.
[14:05] Surd Which is one of the reasons poetics of web art is important
[14:05] mIEKAL when I watch my 12 year old son at work I think we just need one generation.
[14:06] mIEKAL so all of you should start producing offspring rapidly.
[14:06] Surd haha
[14:06] ***strewn has joined #defib
[14:06] billseye it's interesting to think that however "radical" the text becomes, now given new technologies its allegiance to the page, to paper, to the conventional book, render it conventional as material
[14:06] mIEKAL they still have the inside track.
[14:07] mIEKAL the shift from content to form. (once again)
[14:07] mIEKAL hi strewn
[14:07] billseye yes, younger people growing up and looking for 'alternative reads' will turn to the web for it, the relevant domain
[14:07] mIEKAL whom are you?
[14:07] mIEKAL not only that bill,
[14:08] Surd The riots in Seattle were, in part, a resistance to the globalized mind you describe, Miekal.
[14:08] mIEKAL but they will need no convincing, no provocation
[14:08] mIEKAL I disagree jim
[14:08] billseye true, miekal
[14:08] ***strewn has quit IRC (QUIT: User exited.)
[14:08] mIEKAL I think it was the global mind.
[14:08] Surd Resisting what?
[14:09] mIEKAL the global mind to me isnt the powers that be....
[14:09] Surd Remote control?
[14:09] mIEKAL sure, authority, centralization
[14:09] mIEKAL capital
[14:10] mIEKAL I havent been following it too closely, so I cant speak to the specific.
[14:10] Surd To be fair, part of what the WTO is about is decentralization of trade, opening it up.
[14:10] ***strewn has joined #defib
[14:10] Surd An operating system for global trade.
[14:11] ***strewn has quit IRC (QUIT: User exited.)
[14:11] mIEKAL I forget where but somebody said to me the internet was not democratic & I agreed, it feels very anarchist to me.
[14:12] billseye anarchies of commerce? art? communication? thought? spirit?
[14:13] mIEKAL even with commerce
[14:13] Surd without an operating system
[14:13] mIEKAL isnt a virtual corporation somewhat anarchist is the capitalist corporate model?
[14:13] mIEKAL in a
[14:14] mIEKAL cant wait for the keyboard that knows what yr fingers intend to type.
[14:14] mIEKAL true beliefware.
[14:14] Surd to establish international ecommerce erodes national borders
[14:14] billseye all, i'm about to be over-run by two small kids more demanding than any corporation -- time to go to the park
[14:14] billseye miekal, i'm impressed and inspired -- thanks
[14:14] Surd OK, Bill, thanks.
[14:14] mIEKAL bill great to have you sit in, I do hope you visit in april.
[14:15] billseye 6 hours north of chi-town?
[14:15] mIEKAL yep
[14:15] billseye hope to be there -- see y'all
[14:15] mIEKAL beautiful ride the last hour
[14:15] Surd See you, Bill.
[14:15] reiner cu bill
[14:15] ***billseye has quit IRC (QUIT: User exited.)
[14:16] [brick] where in wisconsin, miekal?
[14:16] mIEKAL southwest
[14:16] mIEKAL between madison & lacrosse.
[14:16] ***echo has joined #defib
[14:16] [brick] ah...my mom lives and preaches in new glarus
[14:16] Surd Hey Beth!
[14:16] mIEKAL ha!
[14:17] reiner hey b
[14:17] mIEKAL about an hour from here dan
[14:17] echo hi
[14:17] [brick] I'll have to visit next time I visit
[14:17] mIEKAL hi beth.
[14:17] [brick] hi beth
[14:17] mIEKAL yes please do.
[14:17] echo hi
[14:17] echo sorry
[14:17] mIEKAL Dreamtime Village
[14:17] echo dashing in and out
[14:18] echo what's the topic?
[14:18] mIEKAL youve arrived in a lull
[14:18] reiner visiting miekal :)
[14:18] Surd We're between topics
[14:18] Surd Trace? LinguaMOO? Elsewhere?
[14:19] mIEKAL Im content to continue with the discussion as well.
[14:20] Surd Yes, I think that the riots were the global mind rioting with itself.
[14:20] mIEKAL there you go jim
[14:21] mIEKAL perhaps the notion that the global mind is anything but chaotic is the problem.
[14:21] mIEKAL even a global mind hardwired with the latest software.
[14:21] Surd Miekal, it touched down here very strongly.
[14:21] echo just checked out the village, this is great, it returns the body to its earthly connections and yet also has the high tech advantage for the mind
[14:22] mIEKAL there is a real difference between our activities & this larger sensibility that we are talking about.
[14:22] mIEKAL I think the implications of what we are doing as designers & poets & artists will have a minute affect over a long period of time.
[14:23] echo yes, but it provides balance..so important
[14:23] mIEKAL this is why Im interested in what life my electronic work takes after I die....
[14:23] echo everything ripples out, miekal
[14:23] mIEKAL no Im saying that I might have many more people that even come close to understanding what I am doing far into the future.
[14:23] echo its important
[14:24] echo but life itself is ephemeral
[14:24] mIEKAL where as now, its one here one there etc...
[14:24] Surd If it is true that technology follows rather than determines the zeit, as I think it is, then the results are long term...
[14:24] echo the future is closer than you realize
[14:24] mIEKAL but if I dont design my works so they can live on, will they even have a life after I stop promoting them?
[14:25] Surd Yes, I've thought about this also.
[14:25] mIEKAL say 200 years from now. someone in a mars space station wants to get their dose of Miekal And
[14:25] mIEKAL & maybe Ive not set my works up so they exist without me.
[14:25] Surd You do what you can while kicking and make some plans for the future, after you kick, and then leave it up to the future.
[14:25] mIEKAL books have libraries.
[14:26] mIEKAL but my digital body of work unless I can make it into something akin to a virus needs me & my server.
[14:27] Surd Why does it need you?
[14:27] echo of course.
[14:27] echo but puzzled
[14:27] mIEKAL or someone who is a champion of my work, a publisher...
[14:27] Surd Yes, that's true.
[14:28] mIEKAL whereas, likely alot of my books will still be in libraries from the copies I have already made.
[14:28] [brick] or an archiver
[14:28] echo we should start an archive
[14:28] mIEKAL but Im saying something more is needed in the evolution of digital being
[14:28] echo collect copies of cd roms
[14:28] echo like reiners
[14:28] mIEKAL but if you start an archive who will maintain it after we die?
[14:28] echo yes
[14:29] echo because the programs become outdated
[14:29] Surd Part of the solution is to present it in multi forms, which we already do.
[14:29] mIEKAL perhaps electronic museums will exist but this will not be any different in a way.
[14:29] echo but so did scrolls and they still exist
[14:29] Surd The CDs should contain as much of the necessary software as possible. The browsers and video drivers.
[14:29] mIEKAL cd-roms are too fragile for my tastes.

Dec 5/99
a project of webartery.com &