12:30 - 13:00
    Links to Reiner Strasser
[12:31] <Deena> does the forest communicate?
[12:31] <Surd> It seems to me that the 'interactivity' a reader engages in online involves a physical type of action that previously, in print, was conceptual.
[12:31] <reiner> what do you think - does the forest communicate?
[12:31] <David> physical beyond mouse and click, Jim?
[12:32] <Surd> But there also a conceptual interactivity as before.
[12:32] <echo> yes..but do we listen to the forest?
[12:32] <komninos> yes
[12:32] <Deena> I think that we interpret the forest, and listen to our interpretations
[12:32] <tom> mouse and click is a gesture - like handwriting or not?
[12:32] <anniea> nice deena
[12:32] <PbN> forest -- yes -- it communicates IF you listen closely
[12:33] <Surd> I mean the mouse and click, the physical navigating and making connections physically previously was a purely conceptual activity.
[12:33] <reiner> so - you are in the middle of 'your' world
[12:33] <Deena> Surd, how does the reader online engage in different ways than the reader in print?
[12:33] <billseye> "interactivity" over-exaggerates what happens -- it's still the dream of virtual interface
[12:33] <komninos> at all times the centre of its universe
[12:33] <cinader> i think the forest communicates to us in our dreams, myths, legends
[12:33] <billseye> most of the user-engagement (user assembly) is still conceptual, like in print
[12:34] <Surd> Deena - just as I said... and additionally.
[12:34] <cinader> "my world" is partly instinctual
[12:34] <PbN> a forest of a single blade of grass growing through a sea of concrete -- listen and learn
[12:34] <tom> doesn't the forest communicate through the writer?
[12:35] <Surd> Bill, yes, we are not making twitch work.
[12:35] <reiner> nice idea
[12:35] <Surd> Like Quake.
[12:35] <komninos> authors create vitual texts, they are actualized in certain ways, books,websites,live performance, and then realized by each reader, perhaps?
[12:36] <Deena> Tom, yes, and the reader than interprets the writer's interpretations
[12:36] <billseye> so, then, what's physical besides mouse movement, eye movement? -- interactivity as we know it is that plus conceptual links, no?
[12:36] <David> In collaborations, the reader/writer connection happens early as each
[12:36] <Deena> Well, I think it is more than physical. You have to interpret the relationships. Why this links to this, how this movement relates to the whole
[12:37] <reiner> the thoughts have to be continued by the reader
[12:37] <David> collaborator reads what the others have written.
[12:37] <cinader> visual texts -- icons --easily understood and speaking to us on the level of dream symbols
[12:37] <echo> a connection in the physical brain...(what physical is besides mouse movement.)
[12:37] <billseye> deena, i agree -- which makes the experience closer to print than, say, karate
[12:38] <Surd> Moving toward imaginative and physical immersion, that metaphor.
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[12:38] <PbN> Re: your work incorporates a great deal of 'interactive' elements, but I would think to say it is about this is to miss the real point ...
[12:38] <Surd> Dreaming it real.
[12:38] <tom> i try and combine the visual and verbal, but the less explicit the better? Reiner?
[12:38] <komninos> so jim, hypertexts give us extra navigational tools, but the text/image/sound still makes us want to follow that path
[12:38] <billseye> yeah, but the dream is conceptual
[12:38] <PbN> I see the interactivity as a means to opening a world of creative discovery in the viewer/participant.
[12:39] <PbN> Is this fair --
[12:39] *jley smiles a hello to all ... Hi Reiner ... and settles back to listen
[12:39] <reiner> hi jen
[12:39] <reiner> interactivity -----
[12:39] <echo> hi Jen, and Martha, and Deena. beth here.
[12:40] <reiner> my idea of art is
[12:40] <Deena> Hi Jen, Beth, et al. Yes, the hypertext has to entice the reader in
[12:40] <Surd> Big canna worms, interactivity, tentacles everywhere.
[12:40] <reiner> that it is a 'multi layer construction'
[12:40] <Deena> But so does every other medium. Ht just has a few more tools and lets the reader play a bit more.
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[12:41] <reiner> you may find it in every picture or book
[12:41] <jley> we just have to convince the 'straight reading audience' they *want* interactivity ;) hi Deena beth Martha and you guys too
[12:41] <jley> what I like about Reiner's work is that the tech feels very human to me ... it shimmers ... entices ...
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[12:41] <echo> i was thinking of the physiology of the brain..
[12:41] <reiner> yes you may find it in every art piece
[12:42] <reiner> but there is a difference in my view
[12:42] <echo> how we build connections thru synapses
[12:42] <mandola> utter newbie here -- can someone post a url to any of reiner's work
[12:42] <reiner> that you 'add' combine these layers in a 'real' way in media-art
[12:42] <reiner> i have made a little link list
[12:42] <billseye> good way of putting it, jen -- it invites immersion of the sort described above
[12:43] <reiner> The links are here.
[12:43] <Deena> Reiner, how do you see the interactions between the layers?
[12:43] <billseye> reiner, the notion of 'layer' is huge in the poetics of this stuff, right
[12:43] <PbN> Re, interactivity then is like a portal to layers -- physical (shimmering) and conceptual ?
[12:44] <reiner> layers - picture elements+changes + sound + 'interactivity'
[12:44] <reiner> you can move thru the layers e.g. by clicking
[12:44] <billseye> Nari makes good point
[12:45] <reiner> but in dhtml you can see the layers also in the code
[12:45] <reiner> layers are not only meant concrete
[12:45] <reiner> but also
[12:45] <reiner> as layers of thinking
[12:45] <jley> ooo I like that ... 'layers of thinking'
[12:45] <reiner> e.g. memory, dream, reflection ....
[12:46] <billseye> there's the layering of what you get on top of the layering of code, plus the layers of thinking
[12:46] <David> multi plied text
[12:46] <reiner> i think the trick is
[12:46] <Deena> How do you see your layers of thinking relate to the structure of the overall whole?
[12:46] <reiner> to combine the stuff in way
[12:46] <billseye> poly-pliant hypermedia
[12:46] <Surd> I like the way you combine the literal layers via mouseover that result in the revelation of different images at once.
[12:46] <reiner> that the reader is intrigued by ...
[12:47] <komninos> reiner, you seem to work the area of nostalgia quite a lot, do you find other moods more difficult to express in our medium
[12:48] <reiner> area of nostalgia - i am not sure to understand right
[12:48] <echo> nostalgia=i remember
[12:48] *jley is experienced extreme bated breath syndrome ... Reiner, intrigued by .... ????
[12:49] <billseye> =i remember and sigh
[12:49] <komninos> well it sends me back to my own memories and past experiences
[12:49] <echo> :o)
[12:49] <echo> breathe in, breathe out..:o)
[12:49] <reiner> what i have made with the little pieces
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[12:50] <reiner> was the trial to express 'little' moods or 'thoughts'
[12:50] <reiner> to create a net opera will be quiet difficult and time expensive .9
[12:50] <Surd> Is the notion of lyric important to you, Reiner?
[12:51] <reiner> notion of lyric
[12:51] <Surd> As in lyrical poetry, for instance.
[12:51] <reiner> people call my thoughts sometimes lyrically
[12:51] <reiner> it is a sort of category
[12:51] <billseye> lyric, yeah -- in reiner's work there is that wordsworthian "emotion recollected in solitude", or whatever that line is
[12:52] <Deena> It seems as though you blend lyric words and lyric images, particularly in skin.
[12:52] <Surd> tranquility, not solitude
[12:52] <billseye> ah...
[12:52] <Deena> So the lyric goes beyond the text and into the layers of thought, which aren't necessarily cast in words...
[12:52] *jley agrees with Deena ... well put :)
[12:52] <reiner> i think a net piece can be made with a bad text :)
[12:53] <Deena> How do you see readers interacting with the words/images lyricism?
[12:53] <Surd> Right, the lyric is a broad notion.
[12:53] <reiner> means ---- if a text is too good --- you need no other elements
[12:53] <echo> dancing with re? :o)
[12:54] <reiner> deena - ? - i 'built' the pieces
[12:54] <reiner> and what i do is to play different roles
[12:54] <billseye> good text? no elements? hm? -- seriously?
[12:54] <reiner> roles of different viewers
[12:54] <reiner> and i look at ... and maybe correct
[12:54] <Surd> I think you're right to resist categorization simply as a lyric artist. It is broad but does have limitations.
[12:54] <PbN> Re -- odd Q -- but I've never heard you say and am curious -- Gustav Klimpt ? Your Web work reminds me of his paintings...
[12:55] <echo> words/images lyrical, interaction , dance as a metaphor.
[12:55] <reiner> klimt --- ? ---- surely i know his work
[12:56] <reiner> i use not as much gold and ornaments - i think .9
[12:56] <PbN> any stronger connections?
[12:56] <reiner> no --- if i think at art
[12:56] <reiner> visual art - i prefer paul klee ...
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[12:57] <anniea> i thought of saenredam
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[12:57] <jley> aha that makes a lot of sense to me reiner ... there's a compartmentalization/ a facetting in a Klee work
[12:57] <David> and also that element of nostalgia
[12:57] <reiner> klee's work is more intellectual ......
[12:58] <reiner> but very sensitive :)
[12:58] <PbN> David (or lyric)
[12:58] <jley> what would you say are your influences reiner??
[12:59] <reiner> my friends in realspace and on the net :)
[12:59] <reiner> haha
[12:59] <jley> hehe ... jley pokes reiner ... historically then :)
[12:59] <reiner> more .... i can tell you which painters or writers i like
[12:59] <reiner> but there is not as much connection

Jan 16, 2000
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