12:15 - 12:45
Komninos's Cyberpoetry
[12:15] <dleshem> which bastards?
[12:15] <Surd> ehehe right on K.
[12:15] <mIEKAL> there are so many
[12:15] <dleshem> they are everywhere
[12:15] <elizabeth> an individual hasn't much point, in itself...
[12:15] <aya> elizabeth - not sure...after all, the expression 'I' makes no sense without others
[12:15] <komninos> countless number of bastards
[12:15] <Hiccup> i just argued this morning about a word's fundamental relational aspect
[12:16] <elizabeth> I agree with that aya
[12:16] <Hiccup> and couldn't see where, on what level a word gives up meaning and becomes emptied
[12:16] <komninos> very soon the battles will begin for web supremacy
[12:17] <dleshem> I have the power
[12:17] <Loss> the battle is probably over, komninos
[12:17] <Surd> Individual sites, these are the sites I tend to like best on the web, those of individuals.
[12:17] <komninos> and it won't be you and me fighting for supremacy but corporate battles
[12:18] <Loss> anyone (at least here) who buys a computer already has "info" loaded, the same old megalithic places, Disney, etc.
[12:18] <aya> what about this site, now? collective gathering? individuals gathering? where is the difference.
[12:18] <Hiccup> yeah, my pre-load homepage doesn't have a "poetry" site
[12:18] <Surd> aya, between what and what?
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[12:18] <komninos> i am a bit skeptical lately, too many dollars turning over
[12:19] <mIEKAL> loss, do you really think the battles are over....I think the net is infinitely hackable
[12:19] <Loss> you have to also think about some of the things we are buying into.
[12:19] <aya> difference between : the collective intelligence on the one hand, and individual in collaboration on the other.
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[12:19] <Loss> Think about what (and a lot of poets link to this) amazon.com has done
[12:19] <Loss> to local bookstores.
[12:20] <Loss> A corporation that will make no profit until 2006
[12:20] <Surd> aya, what you read in the transcript are individuals leaping wordly, sometimes connecting, sometimes not, sometimes a thread amongst many, sometimes a voice in the wilderness.
[12:20] <Loss> is running local, community bookstores out of business ...
[12:20] <dleshem> L. hasn't it done similar things to B&N and Borders?
[12:20] <Loss> it's only track record is it gets bigger each year.
[12:20] <dleshem> and weren't they already running the locals out?
[12:20] <komninos> i think aol's achievement is more surprising
[12:20] <dleshem> in what way K?
[12:20] <Loss> Yes, I got into a lot of trouble at a conference once for making a negative comment about Borders.
[12:20] <elizabeth> Borders is OK it's taking over London.
[12:21] <mIEKAL> can anyone submit books to be sold thru amazon.com?
[12:21] <Hiccup> what happened Loss?
[12:21] <Loss> Borders is the "mall" of bookstores. It's not like the public square.
[12:22] <talanM> i think there are a lot of contradictions -- sentiment and futures
[12:22] <Loss> You can't go in there if you are homeless and you can't use certain words if you read in there.
[12:22] <aya> how would ayn rand respond to pierre levy's vision...
[12:22] <komninos> well how long did it take to build the time warner organisation, it's making real profit, it has assets, physical properties, and it has been engulfed by a virtual company
[12:23] <Loss> But the curious think, K. is that it is such a monolith.
[12:23] <talanM> virtual MEDIA company... that's about TW seeing where the future is... and expansion, colonization
[12:23] <Loss> It make movies, reviews them, then says they're the biggest thing that ever happened. All thru its own companies!
[12:23] <komninos> and plenty of people are buying that loss
[12:24] <Loss> There is virtually no free choice in the arts, generally.
[12:24] <talanM> for consumption, you mean..?
[12:24] <Hiccup> how about the web?
[12:25] <Surd> but the job of 'time warner' is not theirs.
[12:25] <Loss> K, do you find the same trend towards consumption art in Aus?
[12:26] <mIEKAL> loss, do you think that it really matters what consumer culture does, ?
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[12:27] <mIEKAL> I feel like underground networks have such a longstanding tradition that they are no longer simply reacting to the mainstream
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[12:27] <talanM> is there really an underground..?
[12:27] <mIEKAL> but propagate a true culture in its own right, with in its own control
[12:27] <komninos> sure, here our once national telephone company(now two thirds privately owned) telstra bought a large isp recently
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[12:28] <mIEKAL> talan, perhaps not, but I use it here in the 80s sense of underground networks.
[12:28] <komninos> and its expanding into buying content providers.
[12:28] <Loss> mIEKAL, I'm reacting to the fact that poets cling to entities such as Borders or amazon.com, giving up the little bit of public space we have left.
[12:28] <cough> this is very similar to 1880's commentary on gilded age monopolies--any tech advance in a capitalist system = abuses which will eventually
[12:29] <cough> be balanced out by reform? i'm not arguing a marxist viewpoint here.
[12:29] <komninos> banks are giving free internet accounts to web-banking customers, so they are becoming internet service providers as well
[12:29] <talanM> the entire system is in motion, transition...
[12:29] <talanM> banking, media... groceries...
[12:29] <cough> yes, talan--but the same wavelike patterns of motion.
[12:30] <komninos> the virtualisation of the economy
[12:30] <talanM> it's all moving at different speeds
[12:30] <talanM> not one big singular transition...
[12:30] <talanM> so there are lurches and earthquakes as the structure transforms...
[12:31] <talanM> thus, the robust nostalgia confused with glorious potential
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[12:31] <komninos> we shouldn't get precious about the internet, it was never ours as such and never will be, we are being allowed to play here
[12:32] <PbN> : )
[12:32] <mIEKAL> the technology isn't ours, anyway.
[12:32] <reiner> as long as we buy the equipment :)
[12:32] <cough> who's getting precious? all's i'm saying is that we need to recognize that this is a common pattern of
[12:32] <komninos> so lets play cos as artists that is what we are good at
[12:32] <cough> reaction to tech
[12:32] <mIEKAL> as opposed to theorizing, K?
[12:33] <Surd> Colonizing the search engines would be a nasty thing.
[12:33] <cough> ha
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[12:33] <komninos> as opposed to politics
[12:33] <Surd> Lycos is quite commercially oriented.
[12:33] <cough> cough
[12:33] <Hiccup> but the search engines just seem to proliferate, and fill up more and more with advertising garbage
[12:34] <komninos> i think we are the best search engines.
[12:34] <Loss> how so, K?
[12:34] <Surd> Working the search engines is tricky for everyone.
[12:34] <komninos> when i find a site i like i go to their links and usually find a whole heap of sites relevant to me and my work
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[12:35] <PbN> K, your work 'Childhood...' ?
[12:35] <Surd> But some do try to maintain some sort of interesting signal to noise ratio.
[12:35] <Hiccup> surd, which ones?
[12:36] <komninos> yes ted
[12:36] <PbN> I love this work -- any more planned?
[12:36] <Surd> altavista, yahoo.
[12:36] <mIEKAL> has anyone used any of the alternate browser, like matthew fuller's project (whose name I forget?
[12:36] <Hiccup> i'd LOVE an alternate browser
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[12:36] <mIEKAL> as I remember I couldn't run it on my setup
[12:36] <komninos> i'm too busy teaching these days ted, but pretty soon i'll have some great student work to show
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[12:37] <PbN> K, looking forward then
[12:37] <Surd> Can you give us some url's, Komninos?
[12:37] <reiner> how is your work / teaching --- which kind of students ... ?
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[12:38] <Loss> yes, k, and do you have syllabi online?
[12:38] <komninos> no, just for writing for the web, a first year introduction to writing html
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[12:39] <Surd> Komninos's Cyberpoetry
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[12:40] <komninos> Some of my lectures are here.
[12:40] <Surd> Komninos sings the blues (at mp3.com)
[12:40] <Loss> keine dames
[12:40] <Hiccup> mkelleher, do you believe in a space-time continuum?
[12:41] <komninos> this semester i am teaching writing for multimedia, students propose a script and storyboard, walkthrough of a cd-rom title
[12:42] <mikelleher> Wake-up mikelleherthings can occur IN time too -- I always find it problematic to say "where" here
[12:42] <mikelleher> that was weird -- a statement I made half hour ago appeared
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[12:42] <mIEKAL> speak of space time time
[12:42] <mikelleher> I don't know about continuums. It just seems to me that movement...
[12:42] <Surd> the net of time
[12:43] <PbN> Miekal -- must have been losst in a time warp, eh?
[12:43] <komninos> and digital production methods, audio, graphic manipulation, 2d animation etc.
[12:43] <mikelleher> is the primary characteristic of objects on the web...
[12:43] <mikelleher> and that movement is time and not space...
[12:43] <mIEKAL> k are you working with grad or undergrad?
[12:43] <komninos> both
[12:43] <mikelleher> the object in web space never IS anywhere...
[12:43] <Surd> specifically concerned with writing or more broadly in the arts?
[12:44] <mIEKAL> & are these students in a media degree or general students?
[12:44] <mikelleher> except in relation to the "plugged in" subject.
[12:44] <komninos> have an honours student who has just completed a virtual prison in vrml with paintings by Chilean political prisoners displayed on the prison walls
[12:45] <Surd> wow. is this on the web?
[12:45] <komninos> these are arts students. we don't teach design or programming, but i am trying to encourage the artistic/creative use of software packages
[12:45] <Hiccup> all subjects are plugged in, and thus nowhere, it would seem]]]
[12:45] <mIEKAL> so do they have much exposure to the literary side of hypermedia?
[12:45] <komninos> no jim it's not, but it might be soon if he goes on to do a phd

Feb 6/2000
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