12:30 - 13:02
[12:30] <Surd> That's a question that Sue and Mez might be interested in too.
[12:31] <Sue> I don't think of myself as gendered - I try to avoid it !
[12:31] <Surd> Yes. I see that, Claire.
[12:31] <Sue> but i am very interested in the notion of the artist as maker
[12:32] <Sue> and jen asked me to write about my first novel Correspondence which came out in 92
[12:32] <mez> in E W L, i suppoze i wanted to create a notion of creatin emotiona & comp allusions within a vis/textual context that equally representz both, but highlights the contradictionz therein...

LOAD [h]er by Mez
[12:32] <Djuna> Beatrice, named after Dante's Bea, the ultimate muse, is an assemblage of many of the women, and honorary women who've informed my life, intellect, heart - being
[12:32] <mez> sue>>yuppe about the non-gendering percept.eye.on..
[12:32] <Sue> she asked me just at a time when i had decided to give up writing fiction - for a while at least - so it was great to
[12:32] <jley> and as you can see from just these three pieces ... they all illustrate what we have come to realize about Women and Tech ... there is no 'uber' woman
[12:33] <jley> there is no one way to view gender or women and tech
[12:33] <Sue> get the chance to go back to my first, probably most successful novel, and re-comment on it

Correspondence by Sue Thomas
[12:33] <cguertin> the frames work well for this kind of dialogue with yourself, your work, sue.
[12:34] <Sue> thanks carolyn - fact is, you couldn't really do that on paper
[12:34] <Surd> Does this issue make further issues on work solely by women less necessary?
[12:34] <cguertin> it would take an entirely different form if you did do it on paper.
[12:34] <cguertin> when women start getting equal time...
[12:35] <cguertin> elsewhere
[12:35] <margie> Ah, Jim, interesting question. In the old days, when women first started getting in print, the same question--and now
[12:35] <reiner> do they not ?
[12:35] <Djuna> hello reiner
[12:35] *jley is enjoying listening :)
[12:35] <reiner> hi ;)
[12:36] <cguertin> hence the need for Assemblage, the Women and Technology issue of Riding the Meridian, Judy Malloy's panel at the Invencao Symposium, reiner.
[12:36] <margie> interesting to note how few women are being anthologized in print, after all the great writing of the 70's and 80's
[12:36] <Sue> this is an ideal chance for me to plug my book!
[12:36] <mez> ;)
[12:36] <Djuna> the floor is yours sue:
[12:37] <Sue> my collection of contemp stories by women - wild women :)
[12:37] <Surd> Howso, Sue?
[12:37] *Sue plug plug
[12:37] *mez is teleprezencing to the Dinner Party at the same time...

A Progressive Dinner Party, ed. Marjorie C. Luesebrink, Carolyn Guertin
[12:37] <Sue> just wanted to point out it exists, in the context of this discussion
[12:37] <Surd> Cool.
[12:37] <jley> yay Sue
[12:37] <Djuna> details please
[12:37] <reiner> ..... women are very present on the net (in my view)
[12:38] <jley> Loss what do you think?
[12:38] <Sue> it's called Wild Women
[12:38] <cguertin> yes, but you're an honourary woman, reiner
[12:38] <jley> vis a vis EPC
[12:38] <Sue> scuse me - what is EPC?
[12:38] <Surd> Well, you know, I find that web pubs are very open to the work i do with dhtml and director etc but are less open to the graphic+text work I do, and I wonder how this relates, or if it does?
[12:38] <Loss> Electronic Poetry Center
[12:38] <jley> the Electronic Poetry Center at SUNY Buffalo
[12:38] *mez is curiouz about being an "honourary" wom.anne, az she feelz this way herr.self sumtimez;)
[12:38] <Sue> thanks
[12:39] *Sue agrees with mez on that one
[12:39] <cguertin> it's an in-joke from webartery and dac.
[12:39] <Loss> I don't think women are as present on the Net as they should be!
[12:39] <Djuna> lol!:)
[12:39] <cguertin> Talan was the first when he wrote a commentary for the Dinner Party
[12:39] <jley> Talan became our first honorary woman
[12:39] <cguertin> Reiner's work is in Assemblage with Christy Sheffield Sanford
[12:39] <jley> there was a whole table of us at DAC ... and Talan
[12:39] <Sue> will there be honorary men in the next one? can i be one?
[12:40] <Sue> yes i enjoyed that dinner!
[12:40] <margie> ah, many women are honorary men
[12:40] <Loss> The DAC dinner, was that the dinner where Coover spoke? Or was there a special event?
[12:40] <jley> Loss it's interesting to hear you say that about women
[12:40] <Sue> yes the coover dinner
[12:40] <margie> yes, that was the one!
[12:40] <jley> that was the coover speaking dinner, yes
[12:41] <jley> Where we all passed notes ;)
[12:41] <Surd> I think that there is an impression amongst many that innovative work is highly langwidgetical...
[12:41] *Sue smiles
[12:41] <cguertin> and kicked each other under the table
[12:41] <margie> in which we became a bunch of Mountebanks and Shyters, we web smoothies
[12:41] *Sue laughs at margie
[12:41] <Surd> That innovation in Web work is strongly deviced...
[12:41] <cguertin> and muttered under our breath
[12:41] <jley> and cooked up devilish ways of presenting our image laden web work
[12:41] ***geniwate has joined #defib
[12:42] <cguertin> which jennifer did in her article at Pif
[12:42] <Sue> DEviced? interesting - can you explain more?
[12:43] <Djuna> the 'ooh' of the tech making up for lack of content
[12:43] <Sue> i have to say i am sitting here smiling
[12:43] <Surd> I think that a lot of editors have a narrow notion of innovation that stresses the coding aspect, for one thing.
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[12:43] <Surd> The language machine aspect.
[12:43] <cguertin> or print conventions, like coover does
[12:43] <jley> well ... I do think there is some tech for the sake of tech going on
[12:43] <jley> but we have to go through a period of learning our tech/when/how to use it
[12:43] <Surd> The making of language machines.
[12:44] <Loss> Yes, I think the tech for tech sake causes some confusion about what's up.
[12:44] <Sue> i was discussing this with mark amerika last week
[12:44] <cguertin> talking the language of machines and the machineries of language...
[12:44] <Sue> we are planning our next competition
[12:44] <jley> and ... once you've clicked to get somewhere ... this sets up expectations as to pacing
[12:44] <Sue> and it will NOT be called a hypertext comp
[12:44] <Surd> I saw a lot of great work with technology at Meridian and, correct me if I'm wrong, but not so much device.
[12:44] <margie> Loss is right about some showiness, but we might have to go thru e.uberance to get to style
[12:45] <margie> sue, what will it be called
[12:45] <jley> right now ... the tech is so new it's hard for it not to seem self-conscious
[12:45] <Djuna> there's a lot of content there - Jen's choices assure it:)
[12:45] <Sue> we don;'t know yet! but not hypertext - far too narrow
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[12:45] ***mez has left #defib
[12:45] <Surd> The device in The Intruder was considerable but a different and ironic approach to device.
[12:46] <margie> sue, please let us all know about it in advance!
[12:46] <cguertin> it seems that only writers called hypertext that--others call it web.art, new media arts, theory, art...
[12:46] <Sue> but of course margie
[12:46] ***tom is now known as guest14936
[12:46] ***guest14936 is now known as tb
[12:46] <Surd> Perhaps we can do intros now, sorry, delayed:
[12:46] <jley> well, Ted Nelson didn't make that distinction re: image and text
[12:46] <Surd> Jim Andrews
[12:47] <cguertin> mez is a language bender of voluminous proportions
[12:47] <Loss> Yes, I'd like intros. J, can you tell me their names, too?
[12:47] <Djuna> to say the least!
[12:47] <jley> Mez uses her nick as her work name
[12:51] <Loss> J, what was the seminar where you all met?
[12:52] <jley> Loss, some of us met (or I met some of these women) through Christy's online workshop at trAce last spring
[12:52] ***Sue has quit IRC (QUIT: User exited)
[12:53] <jley> but I think DAC was the real turning point ... and webartery too
[12:53] <cguertin> most of us knew each other though, through e-mail, prior to dac
[12:53] <cguertin> dac crystalized us into a community
[12:53] <cguertin> formed friendships
[12:54] <cguertin> new facets and focuses on our work
[12:54] <Loss> Webartery as a discussion list?
[12:54] <Djuna> i feel like an outsider [wasn't there];(
[12:54] <jley> that's how I met Claire
[12:54] <jley> and I guess this continues to be the point of the net ... there are always people doing amazing work that we're just finding out about
[12:54] <Djuna> webartery definitely - Jim has brought a lot of wondrous folks together
[12:54] <margie> claire, you aren't now
[12:54] <jley> it's very difficult to think you've been definitive here
[12:55] <jley> it's a challenge ... and an opportunity
[12:55] <Djuna> :)
[12:55] <Surd> Webartery is a conduit, primarily.
[12:55] <cguertin> webartery spans the 'old guard' of the hypertext world and the new media arts. it's a wonderful thinktank
[12:55] <geniwate> so how long has webartery been going?
[12:55] <Surd> About a year.
[12:56] <margie> Jim, can new folks join?
[12:56] <Surd> Definitely, margie.
[12:56] <jley> kind of points up what is happening with lit/arts yes?? this amazing amount of cross fertilization
[12:56] <Djuna> please do margie!
[12:56] <jley> yes Margie do
[12:56] <Surd> Yes, multiplicity, as you said, Jen, is crucial to the art.
[12:56] <geniwate> i've just joined and the participants are very friendly and interesting
[12:57] <cguertin> this issue of Riding the Meridian really highlights that. It is a dialogue across borders and boundaries.
[12:57] <Surd> The art is synthetic of many things...
[12:57] <jley> that's what I hoped to do Carolyn :) glad it worked for you
[12:58] <TB> i couldn't connect earlier? mb my server?
[12:58] <cguertin> the fact that it includes multiple genres, poetry, fiction, hypertext, theory (and all of the above) is a focus of its strength.
[12:58] <Surd> Yes, that was the fascinating thing to me.
[12:59] <TB> webartery has something for all
[12:59] <Djuna> deleuze would be proud
[12:59] <cguertin> look at the theory even: it turns up under literature as often as elsewhere.
[12:59] <Surd> The diversity cutting along those lines...
[12:59] <cguertin> bending these gen(d)res
[12:59] <Djuna> multiple strata, intensities ...
[12:59] <geniwate> and cybervertigo
[13:00] <TB> is webartery a rhizome:)
[13:00] <cguertin> rhizomes, roots spreading laterally...
[13:02] <Djuna> subject anyone?
[13:02] <cguertin> women's hypertext?
[13:02] <Surd> How would a men's issue play?
[13:02] <cguertin> hey!

Feb 20/2000
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