13:02 - 13:30
[13:02] <Djuna> do you think it can be separated as a genre from men's?
[13:03] <jley> I don't think a men's issue would play ...
[13:03] <cguertin> no, there are blendings
[13:03] <Surd> I mean, is it necessary?
[13:03] <cguertin> but i think that women are speaking distinctly...
[13:03] <margie> what? lost in ahspace--aren't we going to do men in RM?
[13:03] <jley> if the work had to do with gender perhaps Jim
[13:03] <cguertin> take Diana Reed Slattery's Glide for instance

[13:04] <cguertin> her new spatial language, where you navigate the labyrinth of her alphabet
[13:04] <Surd> What is the URL for that, Carolyn?
[13:04] <cguertin> it's very much a woman's notion of space and an embodied interaction with language
[13:04] <jley> margie ... yes we are ... I think Jim meant do we need a Men and Tech
[13:05] <cguertin> * cguertin feels like she's talking to herself
[13:05] <Surd> No, I'm listening, Carolyn.
[13:05] <Djuna> why not? it would be an interesting juxtaposition
[13:05] <jley> I am too Carolyn just about ten lines behind
[13:06] <cguertin> margie too (in her guise as m.d. coverley) also plays with language, the language of string
[13:06] <cguertin> in Califia
[13:06] <PbN> Carolyn, you have my attention, too
[13:06] <cguertin> and adrianne wortzel creates a lacan alphabet
[13:06] <cguertin> oop, that should be lacanian alphabet
[13:06] <geniwate> The Wales Conference: it's about the nexus between science, technology and art
[13:06] <Djuna> as in Jacques?
[13:06] <tb> i think things have moved beyond gender. What about people and 'play'?
[13:07] <PbN> here here, TB
[13:07] <Surd> Well, looking at Meridian, it's an amazing achievement, I think, and I can see the need for it.
[13:07] <PbN> C... lacanian alphabet?
[13:07] <jley> I think one thing that continues to intrigue me is the place where pre-web work in concrete poetry, forms like that ... rubs up against what we are doing on the net
[13:08] <cguertin> check it out.
[13:08] <Surd> But I'm not sure an issue on men's work would be of similar consequence.
[13:08] <cguertin> it is a very visual world we are exploring
[13:08] <jley> and the place where art/image rubs up against language/image
[13:08] <margie> oh, but as Carolyn points out, there are lots of ways to re-form the language
[13:08] <cguertin> vispo has more to do with what we are doing than with coover's literary theory, for one...
[13:09] <jley> well I still see that Golden Age premise as locked to the tech then available
[13:09] <cguertin> deena larsen tried to quilt hypertext books originally, didn't she?
[13:09] <TB> jley, i'm very interested in what you're talking about!
[13:10] <margie> Jim, you may be right--but the whole idea of webwork is still a not-count, no count thing--men working in this field are in the vanguard, as well

Endless Suburbs by M.D. Coverley
[13:10] <jley> TB ... once I've recovered from the two months of coding .... we can talk about that more
[13:10] <TB> great
[13:10] <cguertin> women's works don't generally get reviewed on the web, even though we are reading them.
[13:10] <Djuna> I've noticed that ...
[13:10] <Surd> Neither do men's, though, Carolyn.
[13:11] <Loss> Geni, thanks for the url. It worked here.
[13:11] <cguertin> look at michael joyce's work as touchstone (no disparagement on Michael), but he gets cited so frequently. how often does mez or christy or margie?
[13:11] <jley> and then there's the 'we' ... ie ... who is reading hypertext/hypermedia who isn't doing the work?
[13:11] <jley> Do we have an audience?
[13:11] <Djuna> a lot more - look at the wired gallery for instance
[13:11] <Surd> There is very little reviewing of any web work.
[13:11] <geniwate> good. I think they're expecting about 200 people
[13:11] <Loss> I think we'd have to look at it as a mixed audience!
[13:11] <Loss> Otherwise it will be small, J.
[13:11] <cguertin> who reads experimental vispo or langpo except poets?
[13:11] <Djuna> and mark america
[13:11] <Djuna> ka
[13:12] <cguertin> the Electronic Book Review and other hypertext journals do publish reviews.
[13:12] <PbN> Good q, Carolyn... often wonder myself...
[13:12] <cguertin> theory gets written.
[13:12] <jley> do they really not review women that much Carolyn?
[13:12] <cguertin> there are forums for reviews.
[13:12] <margie> it took a while before Michael got cited much--but you don't see the other women of Coover's Golden Age cited much at all, that was one reason why I was eager to include them in the Dinner Party
[13:12] <Surd> Well I get about 70 visitors a day... my impression is that the audience is diverse.
[13:12] <jley> perhaps we all need to do more reviewing and article writing
[13:13] <cguertin> pbn, these are writerly forums, aren't they? To evoke Roland Barthes.
[13:13] <cguertin> Carolyn Guyer and J. Yellowlees Douglas (whose work made the e-Norton) do, but they are exceptions.
[13:14] <cguertin> women writers zine is looking for reviews...
[13:14] <Surd> Reviews of what, Carolyn?
[13:14] <margie> Carolyn, you are so right--but yes, exceptions.
[13:14] <cguertin> hypertext by women
[13:14] <cguertin> reviews, like articles, give legitimacy (sad to say), margie.
[13:14] <Surd> What is the URL for that?
[13:14] <jley> I think Pif is looking for more hypertext commentary and reviewers too
[13:15] <cguertin> make these forms a legitimate field of study--which therefore means that they survive.
[13:15] <jley> they have a large and diverse (not just lit) audience
[13:15] <TB> Surd, I agree. the problems is the public is just not aware of vispo
[13:16] <cguertin> women writers.org (i think)
[13:16] <Surd> More of this later, but we will in the next few months start working on a book of the first year of webartery correspondence.
[13:16] <PbN> I sometimes think art suffers by it's own definition (name)...
[13:16] <jley> part of this is just the age old/how many people are aware of art/literature issue ... but with hypertext ... people get very snarly as if you're trying to take away their books
[13:16] <cguertin> the avant-garde is rarely read, only practiced.
[13:16] <margie> the audience for poetry and short fiction has been small for years. The thing to celebrate here is that we can get a much wider audience on the web
[13:16] <Djuna> may I ask a terminology question and evince my ignorance?
[13:16] <jley> Claire ignorant??
[13:17] <Djuna> ;)
[13:17] *margie waiting to hear a good question
[13:17] <jley> ask ask :)
[13:17] <Djuna> what is lexia?
[13:17] <geniwate> jley-snarly point--kominos, I and others have just been reviewed in the major Aust literary journal (Meanjin) in which the whole enterprise was canned. Can't help thinking there were a few vested interests/hidden agendas there.
[13:18] <margie> a linked block of print, any size
[13:18] <Djuna> it wasn't in my dictionary
[13:18] <jley> geni ... I'm working on something called "This is Not a Book" because I got so tired of telling 'readers' I didn't want to take away their bathtub books
[13:18] <Surd> My feeling is that the work is more widely considered than I'm reading here.
[13:19] <margie> geni, I love it that they panned you. think that is good news, shows you are ahead of the curve
[13:19] <cguertin> the arguments have always been the same: tv would kill radio, etc.
[13:19] <TB> lexia as in field? I think this discussion may cross-fertilize the field poetics project.
[13:19] <jley> Jim ... this came from trying to start hypertext threads at Poets and Writers, and Utne Reader's message boards
[13:19] <geniwate> yes, interesting tho--the author is an academic of hypertext. So it's not clear how to interpret it

Rice by geniwate
[13:19] <jley> I was amazed at the animosity ... still am
[13:19] <Djuna> yes tom
[13:20] <cguertin> a lexia is a page, a block of text
[13:20] <cguertin> George Landow appropriates lexia from Roland Barthes to discuss hypertext.
[13:20] <geniwate> i think lexia was coined by Barthes is S/Z?
[13:20] <cguertin> right-o
[13:21] <Djuna> thanks
[13:21] <TB> a lexia is a page, is a field, is a word, is 'text'
[13:22] <Surd> I feel that as the snowball rolls in this transition to the net of much of the dissemination of literature and publications that were we to
[13:22] <ed> A/S/L\
[13:22] <Surd> convene in ten years
[13:22] <Surd> we would find most of us in different positions...
[13:22] <Djuna> i thought so, just wasn't sure - I thought of Duncan
[13:23] <Surd> For instance, most U's are in a hurry to make the transition and don't know how.
[13:23] <PbN> Folks, this is one of the most interesting Defibs I've attended -- most enjoyable -- but must run. To Jen and all, congrats with the new RtM! All the way! Thanks for allowing me 'honorary woman for a day' :) Best, Ted
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[13:23] <Surd> Thanks, Ted.
[13:23] <jley> thanks Ted :)
[13:23] <Djuna> bye ted
[13:23] <cguertin> aloha
[13:23] <reiner> cu Ted
[13:24] <Ed> ANY WOMAN IN HERE
[13:24] <jley> uh oh
[13:24] <cguertin> where?
[13:24] <jley> Ed ... try another channel for that
[13:24] <PbN> :)
[13:24] <PbN> bye
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[13:24] <Djuna> put him on 'ignore'
[13:24] <geniwate> bye
[13:24] <cguertin> whew. i thought that said 'user excited.'
[13:24] <Surd> Who are you, Ed?
[13:24] <jley> Carolyn I see that all the time LOL
[13:25] <Ed> A PERSON
[13:25] <Djuna> lol!
[13:25] <margie> Jen, everyone--this has been cool--great to talk with you all. Need to mosey back to taxes!
[13:25] <Surd> Thanks very much, Margie.
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[13:25] <cguertin> Jen, did you want to tell us about your thinking behind the issue?
[13:25] <margie> Best til the next
[13:25] <jley> hi Diane :)
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[13:25] <gromala> Hi Jley!
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[13:26] <TB> bye all. I must go
[13:26] <jley> Carolyn ... I think what it has achieved is to show the incredible variety of work done by women, whether that work addresses their gender or not
[13:26] <cguertin> uh huh
[13:26] <jley> and I was curious about that when I started
[13:26] <jley> I thought I might have 'answers'
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[13:26] <cguertin> did you find any?
[13:27] <jley> no just more questions :)
[13:27] <cguertin> hehe
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[13:27] <jley> Diane ... so glad you made it ...
[13:27] <cguertin> go on, jen
[13:28] <jley> do you want to say anything about SIGGRAPH while you're here??
[13:28] <gromala> gromala=Diane Gromala
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[13:28] <jley> Diane has work in the literature section ... a series of ongoing works of hers
[13:28] <cguertin> i enjoyed your essay and the tour of your work, Diane, in this issue.
[13:28] <gromala> Yes, thanks. I'm chair of SIGGRAPH's Art Gallery this year.
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[13:29] <gromala> Thanks cguertin, I've been a longtime and avid consumer of your articles.
[13:29] <Djuna> ah, I haven't gotten through the HUGE body of work you've showcased yet
[13:29] <gromala> Any
[13:29] <cguertin> carolyn
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[13:29] <cguertin> gee tanks
[13:29] <gromala> we've received about 724 submissions to the art gallery this year
[13:29] <jley> heavens !!
[13:29] <cguertin> and me of yours, Diane.
[13:29] <Surd> What is it, Diane?
[13:29] <cguertin> 724!
[13:29] <jley> did you receive alot of hypermedia submissions? or more straight digital art or?
[13:30] <gromala> and I'm pretty excited that many submissions are from women, and many concern mutant art forms and work that deal with issues of the body.
[13:30] <cguertin> there's our new name for hypertext: mutant art forms!

Feb 20/2000
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