12:00 - 12:30
Session Start: Sun Mar 05 11:31:32 2000
[11:31] ***Now talking in #defib
[11:31] ***ChanServ sets mode: +rtn
[11:31] ***ChanServ changes topic to 'Carolyn Guertin, Sun. Mar 5, noon PST, 3pm EST, 20:00 GMT, 6am Queensland'
[12:02] <Surd> You've been doing a lot of work, Carolyn, with Jen on Women's Hypertext
[12:03] <carolyn> indeed i have, and before i met jen too.
[12:03] <Surd> and that is your specialty that you've been working on for a long time
[12:03] <Surd> How did the Assemblage start?
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[12:03] <carolyn> as a doctoral candidate, my areas of specialty are the 20th century feminist avant-garde and technologies of writing.
[12:04] <carolyn> assemblage was born of my private 'library' of links.
[12:04] <carolyn> i got frustrated trying to find women's work at the usual source sites for hypertext--which did little to distinguish quality, let alone the female gender.
[12:05] <carolyn> hence assemblage.
[12:05] <Surd> Did you find that they were under represented?
[12:05] <jley> when did you decide to concentrate on this for your doctorate ??
[12:05] <carolyn> i found that women were non-existent.
[12:06] <carolyn> well, my doctorate evolved.
[12:06] <carolyn> originally i was looking at hypertextual thinking in print works
[12:06] <carolyn> but no one seemed to know what i was talking about, so i had to go back and fill in the gap about what hypertext and specifically feminist hypertext was.
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[12:07] <jley> were there specific print feminist hypertexts that got you started this way?
[12:07] <Helen> is this/will this thesis be available on the Web, sounds fascinating?
[12:08] <carolyn> i think that 'hypertextual' thinking is pretty prevalent in works by the avant-garde
[12:08] <carolyn> but feminists have more frequently clearly articulated their political agendas...
[12:09] <carolyn> than men have. it makes for more coherent metatextual thinking.
[12:10] <Surd> How does hypertextual thinking coincide with a feminist political agenda?
[12:10] <dslattery> how do you mean 'metatextual thinking?'
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[12:11] <carolyn> if you look at the writings of carole maso, lyn heijinian, nicole brossard and others you see self-reflexive speculation on the nature of language, vision, the senses. this is what i mean by metatextual. it's also a political act.
[12:11] <Djuna> meaning[s?] beyond [the literal] text?
[12:12] <PbN> I like that, Claire
[12:12] <carolyn> hypertext examines and articulates boundaries, that's political.
[12:12] <carolyn> yes, claire. meanings and movings beyond the text.
[12:12] <jley> by the infrastructure Carolyn?
[12:12] <carolyn> it's a kind of nomadic voyaging in thought, language, reading, writing...
[12:13] <jley> that nomadic voyaging is very apparent in Skeleton Sky
[12:13] <carolyn> do you mean the text's infrastructure? or political infrastructure? I would say yes to both.
[12:13] <PbN> Is it not the goal of good writing to move us beyond the word/page?
[12:13] <jley> i was thinking more literally of the text but yes I can see that
[12:13] <carolyn> skeleton sky is about cycles, about movement, about oscillations in a moment in time...
[12:14] <Helen> URL?
[12:14] <carolyn> we are in the midst of redefining the page. i think that's a good thing. a new way of thinking for a new medium.
[12:14] <Djuna> i think it may be a matter of wanted a ground upon which to play that has not been defined in such exclusive terms which denied us/our relevancy, validity
[12:14] <jley> good point Claire :)
[12:15] <carolyn> skeleton sky is at
[12:15] <dslattery> redefining the page: what excites me the most is the z axis.
[12:15] <jley> as in z=time/space/depth??
[12:15] <carolyn> do you mean z axis in terms of another dimension?
[12:15] <Surd> (Love Glide, Diane!)
[12:16] <Djuna> I find that very hard to grasp in this translation to the 2 dimensional - z axis only implied -
[12:16] <dslattery> yes--x and y the flat--z the depth, the third
[12:16] <dslattery> thanks, surd
[12:16] <carolyn> claire's point is a good one, but it's not just a ground, it's time/space/depth as jennifer puts it.
[12:16] <Djuna> having working so many years in the 3rd
[12:17] <carolyn> and diana's Glide makes so many new dimensions open up for play(fullness) as a reader.
[12:17] <Surd> All the dimensions of language and the body
[12:17] <Djuna> but it's implication, and a lot of the translation of that depends, as Carolyn noted in Emails, on an astute reader
[12:18] <carolyn> too true. hypertext requires a very sophisticated reader.
[12:18] <Djuna> "reader" rather
[12:18] <Helen> too sophisticated to be widely read?
[12:18] <jley> a very attentive reader :)
[12:18] <carolyn> it's a very elaborate form.
[12:19] <Helen> i sometimes wonder if there are only writers of hypertext, no one just reads
[12:19] <carolyn> and it requires attention to--and visualization of--detail.
[12:19] <dslattery> or just one willing to let go of the lined regimentation, not fearing freefall of meaning, not needing hand held
[12:19] <carolyn> interesting point, helen.
[12:19] <Helen> or - we need to educate readers in the way we are educating writers in the new form
[12:19] <Djuna> I don't thinks so necessarily Helen, but I think a lot will "read" only the surface and not the multiplicities
[12:19] <carolyn> but i think that most of us are still 'passive' readers. it will take a newer generation (i fear) to really make the most of the innovations of the form.
[12:20] <jley> that makes a lot of sense ... like the kids who don't have trouble programming the vcr :)
[12:20] <Helen> i think that's probably true carolyn - the new gen (kids) grasp it MUCH more easily
[12:20] <carolyn> we have been trained to avoid the dizzy vertigo of the likes of vertigo...
[12:20] <Surd> yes, the ones who don't worry about breaking the computer but just get in there and click and type away
[12:20] <carolyn> exactly
[12:21] <jley> mmm evolution of the human past the linear ...
[12:21] <carolyn> freefall does not come naturally to us.
[12:21] *Helen nods at Jennifer
[12:21] <carolyn> but we are learning how to move multilinearily
[12:21] <Djuna> maybe, but I also fear evidence pointing to the fact that less and less do read, but instead just see. it's becoming a greater and greater visual culture daily,
[12:21] <dslattery> but we are going to freefall by desire. i'd give a lot for a week in a space capsule
[12:22] <jley> ah that's what Robert Coover is worried about
[12:22] <carolyn> yet, more books are printed and read than ever before.
[12:22] <Surd> But they read the other dimensions we're discussing more and more, Claire, yes?
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[12:22] <jley> I was in the library in Manhattan yesterday and it was PACKED
[12:22] <carolyn> i think that we are just learning how to integrate the visual and the textual.
[12:22] <Helen> was it raining? ;)
[12:22] <PbN> read... see... time to redefine the terms? or are we in need of a new term?
[12:22] <carolyn> how about a time/space capsule, diana?
[12:22] <PbN> Loss!
[12:23] <Loss> Greetings!
[12:23] <jley> Hi Loss :)
[12:23] <Helen> read - literacy -webliteracy?
[12:23] <carolyn> new terms and new thinking about the form.
[12:23] <carolyn> new literacies too, yes.
[12:23] <Surd> Electrate is a nice term brought up in the email.
[12:23] <carolyn> greg ulmer's term
[12:23] <Helen> carolyn in your studies you looked at hypertextual thinking in print media -- did you see it happening more and more -- and in film etc too in recent years?
[12:24] <dslattery> pondering time/space capsule and spaced (timed?) out
[12:24] <Djuna> possibly, but I am afraid I think that 'vision' hinges on a bit of web idealism - we are losing a sense of subtlety in this immediate gratification environment : Balance is the key -
[12:24] <carolyn> i think that film has it's own language, as does the text.
[12:24] <jley> mmm maybe it's that the interface is still far from transparent
[12:24] <carolyn> hypertext uses it's own kind of thinking and literacy.
[12:25] <jley> so what changes have you observed in the medium Carolyn?
[12:25] <carolyn> yes, claire. hypertext speaks with both text and image. but it uses images differently from film or television. incorporates them far more thoroughly.
[12:26] <Surd> Integrates them with text.
[12:26] <carolyn> i think that there's a much greater focus on the dynamic or kinetic nature of the medium.
[12:26] <PbN> Carolyn, incorporating images -- you know Christy Sheffield-Sanford's work? She has done
[12:26] <dslattery> yes!
[12:26] <PbN> some amazing things here.
[12:26] <Djuna> I'm not 'worried' about image tho, but about text (mad lover of the word here:)
[12:26] <Helen> so this multitasking we have to do when watching Tv -- like lots of plots in ER -- doesn't help us become webliterate/electrate
[12:26] <carolyn> a greater exploration of the conjunctures/disjunctures of time, space, depth, language.
[12:26] <carolyn> christy is taking dhtml to astounding new places.
[12:27] <PbN> yes
[12:27] <jley> Carolyn wrote about Christy's work in Queen Bees yes?
[12:27] <dslattery> url for christy?
[12:27] <carolyn> i think that it would be pretty hard to come to the web without having seen tv, because so much of the early work tried incorporating things that we learned from tv. they didn't fit quite right though.
[12:27] <Surd> I've seen the odd post by Christy in the dhtml forums.
[12:28] <PbN>
[12:28] <dslattery> thanks
[12:29] <carolyn> christy's 'Roots of Non-Linearity' has just gone 404, but it's coming in the next issue of BeeHive.
[12:29] <carolyn> it's something to watch out for.
[12:30] <Surd> In dhtml, every tag is poetentially dynamic, the whole document, every bit of it, is potentially dynamic.
[12:30] <carolyn> it is a new exploration of multi-dimensionality.
[12:30] <carolyn> truly a new way of thinking about 'text'.

Mar 5/2000
a project of &