13:00 - 13:30
[13:01] <Surd> What will you design the course with (software)?
[13:01] <Djuna> brb
[13:01] <carolyn> my preference is to continue to try to shoehorn this work into english departments, to study it in the context of literature, popular culture, and film.
[13:02] <carolyn> 'design' as in 'write'. it's a web correspondence course really.
[13:02] <Surd> On a list?
[13:02] <carolyn> but it will be well-linked to online sources. no, not a list, a university. it's a course for credit.
[13:02] <jley> like the New School has Jim, I think
[13:03] <Surd> O, I misunderstood.
[13:03] <Surd> I'm a dropout, Jen 8-)
[13:03] <jley> hehe
[13:03] *jley has a question ...
[13:03] <carolyn> there are a lot of opportunities to teach this kind of work through the open forum that the web offers.
[13:03] *carolyn thinks that she is a dropout too.
[13:04] <jley> carolyn how does your writing and theorizing interact with your own creative work??
[13:04] <carolyn> on every level. but so does my sculpting...
[13:04] <Surd> Also, Carolyn, I think the universities are beginning to realize they need people knowledgeable about the new medium.
[13:05] <Djuna> about time!
[13:05] <carolyn> i think that i see criticism very visually and use it as a tool for investigating thinking in different dimensions.
[13:05] <jley> thanks !! that sums it up beautifully for me
[13:05] <carolyn> criticism (as a postmodernist) is rhizomatic for me.
[13:05] <Djuna> very nice --
[13:06] <jley> I see you doing that ... ie. that piece that we were going to publish ... on ...
[13:06] <Djuna> why 'as a postmodernist?"
[13:06] <carolyn> i have always had problems with 'linear' readings of text that try to fit them into neat categories.
[13:06] <carolyn> that is my area of specialization: postmodernism.
[13:07] <Djuna> "postmodernism" is a category
[13:07] *jley can't remember the title ____ Brides
[13:07] <carolyn> i am much more comfortable with works that don't give pat answers or have neat endings. postmodernism is a more open, inclusive way of thinking. to my mind, anyways.
[13:08] <carolyn> ah, jen. sorry. 'Only Women, Practicing' is an investigation of flaneuring in fiction.
[13:08] <jley> flaneuring??
[13:08] <PbN> Are we not moving beyond postmodernism?
[13:08] <Djuna> designation. but what about the emphatic "anti" of it's stance?
[13:08] <jley> help translation !!
[13:08] <carolyn> specifically a postmodern text called Main Brides by Gail Scott.
[13:08] <Djuna> {just ordered it at Carolyn's suggestion}
[13:09] <carolyn> a flaneur is a two dollar voyeur. someone who voyages through the city experiencing the world sensually. it's parisienne.
[13:09] <jley> ooo la la ;)
[13:09] <carolyn> see Charles Baudelaire for the full treatment.
[13:09] *jley breaks out the croissants
[13:09] <Djuna> sounds rather modern to me ...
[13:09] <carolyn> how so, PbN. do you mean post-post-modernism?
[13:09] <jley> Well I think it's essential to write about hypertext within the architecture it thrives in ...
[13:10] <PbN> Um, maybe -- forgive my ignorance -- is vyberspace something beyond???
[13:10] <carolyn> postmodernism can't exist without the modern. the shift that delineates the two is from the devastation of the world in modernism to the devastation of the soul in pomo.
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[13:10] <Surd> Hi Tom.
[13:11] <carolyn> good point, jen. hypertext is absolutely architectural: a nomadic voyaging of space.
[13:11] <jley> yes !!
[13:11] <carolyn> an exploration of time in space.
[13:11] <carolyn> greetings, tom.
[13:11] ***tom is now known as t0om
[13:11] <Surd> Devastation of the soul, you mean the post human conception of people as machines?
[13:11] <jley> I guess that's why I brought up virtual reality ... as it is ... it's a fad but ... it could become more potent
[13:11] <Djuna> sorry, but I think that's a rather limited definition of modernism
[13:12] <jley> anyway ... I need to eat something, my stomach is making nasty noises
[13:12] <jley> thanks Carolyn ... what a joy !!
[13:12] <jley> bye all :)
[13:12] <Surd> Thanks, Jen!
[13:12] <t0om> bye
[13:12] ***jley has quit IRC (QUIT: User exited)
[13:12] <Surd> Devastation of the soul, you mean the post human conception of people as machines?
[13:12] <carolyn> cyborgism or technological supremacy are a component of it, but it's a change in focus. the death of god, a lack of certainly, a despair that gives us no faith in ourselves, others or the world.
[13:13] <PbN> Terminator
[13:13] <carolyn> sure, claire. any definition is limited. modernism is very rich indeed.
[13:13] <t0om> i had trouble following what you said in your article about Richards
[13:13] <Djuna> Nietzsche said first 'in print' God is dead' and he defines modernisms beginnings, theoretically, in my mind
[13:14] <Surd> According to that definition, Carolyn, I'd say we're past that.
[13:14] <carolyn> how so, tom?
[13:14] *carolyn thinks nietzsche is definitely past that.
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[13:14] <t0om> virtual reality and feminism?
[13:15] <Djuna> hello geni!
[13:15] <geniwate> hi
[13:15] <PbN> Geni!
[13:15] <carolyn> vr, hypertext and *embodied* feminist criticism. it's a way of bringing the body and the senses into our thinking.
[13:15] <geniwate> yes!
[13:15] *carolyn waves at geni.
[13:15] <geniwate> yes, I got the wind
[13:16] <Djuna> humanizing text, bringing it loser to the other ontologically (as human/animal/being)
[13:16] <Djuna> closer (sorry)
[13:16] <t0om> i'm interested in embodied but don't see how virtual gets there
[13:16] <carolyn> right, claire. taking it away from 'disembodied theorizing' to use diane greco's terminology.
[13:17] <t0om> humanizing = feminizing ?
[13:17] <carolyn> ah, in the sense that in the virtual we take our body with us. the body must interact in space and time to experience vr.
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[13:18] <t0om> but the body does that now and the problem is we're cut off?
[13:18] <Djuna> putting more right brain into a left-brain (general) defined medium (gross generalization noted perforce)
[13:18] <reiner> just back
[13:18] <t0om> hi reiner
[13:18] <carolyn> in that essay, Gesturing Toward the Visual, i was specifically working with feminist thought which so often gets left out of discussions of technology.
[13:18] <carolyn> hey reiner. thought you were on the road...
[13:19] <reiner> yeah jumped from the door to the mac :)
[13:19] <carolyn> welcome.
[13:19] <Surd> Is the new Meridian a more coherent 'body' than Assemblage?
[13:19] <Djuna> (one happy family oui?)
[13:19] <reiner> (it is 22:30 here)
[13:20] <PbN> 2:30 PM, grey day
[13:20] <Djuna> SUNNNNNNNNNNNN!!!
[13:20] <reiner> who has a coherent body here / on the net
[13:20] <PbN> :)
[13:21] <Djuna> indeed reiner
[13:21] <Surd> It is shaped
[13:21] <carolyn> hm. a more coherent body? hm. it is highlights and selections from assemblage. it pulls out a lot of works that are thinking in new ways and expressing themselves more fully across textual and visual divides. These are immersive works and so, yes, there is a component of embodiment to them. A more full expression of embodiment will come with advances in technology, i hope...
[13:21] <Djuna> may I ask the intent of that question Jim? what are you after?
[13:22] <Surd> The experience of the new Meridian
[13:22] *carolyn thinks that her body is pretty fragmented
[13:22] <Surd> is different from Assemblage
[13:22] <carolyn> explain, jim.
[13:22] <Djuna> {moi aussi!
[13:22] <Surd> It is more shaped
[13:22] *reiner mind slips away on the net
[13:22] <Surd> rather than an Assemblage
[13:22] <carolyn> do you mean in terms of the interface? it is 39 works rather than hundreds of authors with multiple works. it is english-language only.
[13:23] <Djuna> DP has a more defined context in which to house the works, and defines their territory more definitely - {form of expression
[13:23] <Surd> In terms of the categories presented, not just the Dinner Party...
[13:23] <carolyn> so yes, absolutely margie and i made editorial decisions in setting the table on the dinner party. but i have also shaped assemblage just as much. it's perhaps just not as apparent because it is so enormous, and more inclusive by design?
[13:24] <Surd> Just a different type of experience, I mean, the one versus the other.
[13:24] <Surd> Yes, I suppose it's the enormity...
[13:24] <carolyn> the categories are meridian's. they are pretty fluid though. there is some work--like Diane Gromala's or Adriene Jenik's--under literature which could fit just as well under 'theory'.
[13:25] <Surd> Yes.
[13:25] <geniwate> its a process I think. An evolution. the tendrils of cyberspace reach into the material world in continually changing ways. cyberspace is changing the material world because it creates a different ontology, and that ontology is in flux.
[13:25] *carolyn stretches her aching back
[13:25] *carolyn scratches her ontology
[13:25] <Djuna> moi aussi again!
[13:25] <PbN> :) :)
[13:26] <Djuna> lol!
[13:26] <t0om> carolyn, i can see that women are leading the way, but "feminism" throws me
[13:26] <carolyn> the web is constantly evolving and we, as artists, as theorists, as writers, are reshaping our thought and our territory.
[13:26] *reiner 's thoughts tend to - the material world can only be changed by cyber because the reception of it is in_material
[13:27] <Surd> Diane asked about language morphing, what happens when language begins to morph (literally and figuratively). It is the hyper real that, for me, anyway, moves past the postmodern.
[13:27] *reiner does not like to have territory on the web
[13:27] <carolyn> embodiment and the theories thereof are feminist thinking. men don't generally consider bodies in their theory (this is changing), and women have reintroduced them as a topic of conversation. it's a move away from disembodied cerebral discourse without a material component.
[13:28] <carolyn> morph into...? interesting question, jim.
[13:28] *reiner wants more sensibility
[13:28] <geniwate> yes. but I also think we are reshaping the material world. Because whatever it is is dependent on our interpretation of it. Hopefully we can become more integrative but I don't like to sound too utopian
[13:28] <Djuna> the body politic
[13:28] <t0om> i think i finally follow
[13:28] <Djuna> :)
[13:29] <Surd> hyper real ~ changing ontology
[13:29] <carolyn> we don't want to define the end product just yet, do we? we do want more sensibility (hehe), reiner. we want the ability to open up cells, in every sense of the wor(l)d.
[13:29] <geniwate> towards a TOE??!!
[13:30] <carolyn> can the drive to communicate more fully across boundaries (including gender) be utopic?
[13:30] <Surd> Reality is more fully fictive

Mar 5/2000
a project of &