13:30 - 14:15
[13:30] *reiner is tired to see sensibility and body-consciousness as female :)
[13:30] <Djuna> but what about the limits this medium underscores? in terms of: its redefining and opening for a lot of us, but many do not have and never will have access. will that not underscore and widen the chasm of difference (class)?
[13:30] *carolyn thumbs through Jane Austen
[13:30] <geniwate> the problem with utopian thought is that is seems to suggest an end-point which I don't want there to be. I want process, becoming
[13:31] *PbN has not a clue about what postmodern is (does anyone, really) but hopes Carolyn might address the notion of cyberspace et al as possibly something beyond pomo?!?
[13:31] <carolyn> technological limits or financial ones?
[13:31] <carolyn> access is always a problem.
[13:32] <reiner> cyberspace tends to split body and mind more as before .?
[13:32] <carolyn> it always has been where literacy is concerned. it is a privilege. this is just underscored a bit more than with print technologies.
[13:32] <t0om> reiner, with writing (art) as action there is a direction that is not necessarily female.
[13:32] <Djuna> financial mostly - I remained a luddite for a long while after a trip to India because the disparagement scared me so
[13:33] <geniwate> reiner, possibly but I think not necessarily. cyberspace can give us now ways to envisage the material world (including bodies). It can be a tool for integration.
[13:33] <reiner> --- who can buy a book ?
[13:33] <carolyn> i think that cyberspace problematizes the connection between mind and body, problematizes gender in ways that we haven't seen before. perhaps this will help not erase but make the consideration of these divisions transparent?
[13:33] <reiner> 'cleaning' the mind ?
[13:33] <Surd> But India is very high tech in parts.
[13:34] <Djuna> yes, but writing the book has remained for thousands of years - the definitions of the world inclusive of cyberspace moves at a pace never seen before
[13:34] <reiner> who can buy an e-book ----- the net is for all ------ (food for all ......
[13:34] <Djuna> FAST!
[13:34] <Surd> The CEO of the company I work for is African American and the CTO is from India.
[13:34] <carolyn> every country has its class divisions. they just aren't usually so apparent as in, say, india.
[13:35] <carolyn> speed that is the language of the brave new world. lightness, as calvino would say.
[13:35] *reiner wants to slow dooooooooooown --------
[13:35] <Djuna> There in america Jim, oui? they are by far a tiny minority in the third world Jim
[13:36] <carolyn> everything is accelerating. we managed to catch the train, but anyone of us or all of us could still get left behind. (New world dangers...)
[13:36] <t0om> i live in rural TN and see gaps all the time that i didn't see when i was in an urban area
[13:36] <Surd> Wired has a great article on tech in India.
[13:36] <carolyn> brb
[13:36] *reiner thinks that if you stop and look you see the world move and ...... your eyes still follow
[13:38] <Djuna> [i'll shut up my contrary self now:)
[13:38] <Surd> Don't do that, luv!
[13:38] <Djuna> where were we ?
[13:38] <Surd> In India.
[13:38] <Surd> In space.
[13:38] <Surd> In our bodies.
[13:38] <PbN> Pomo?
[13:38] <Surd> Everywhere.
[13:38] <reiner> -------defib chat ----
[13:38] <Djuna> there were two too important conversations going on and they were distracting from each other i think
[13:39] <carolyn> why beyond pomo, PbN?
[13:39] <reiner> i am in my white working room
[13:39] <PbN> Not sure. I'm guessing now tho the q is not valid...
[13:39] <Surd> I just had a guest join me irl, the irl chat room.
[13:39] <geniwate> cyberspace presents a new type of exploration. As explorers we don't know yet what we might find. I suspect one thing we might eventually find there is the material world. It's just around the next corner. After all, our bodies are just a wrinkle in the space-time continuum
[13:40] <Djuna> yes it is - I have a lot of problems understanding what it's all about also Ted
[13:40] <carolyn> i love the way you use the refuse of travel as a component of your text Rice, geni.
[13:40] <carolyn> exploring the gutters of the third world...
[13:40] *reiner thinks that cyberspace makes real world more consciousness
[13:41] <carolyn> finding the material in the gutteral (as it were).
[13:41] <Surd> Much better resolution irl
[13:42] <carolyn> to get back to what you were saying, geni, our bodies are the wrinkle through which we experience the space-time continuum. for too long we have tried to intellectualize or analyze that experience.
[13:42] <t0om> cyberspace in the way carolyn talks about it is somewhat like meditation?
[13:42] <carolyn> or floating? or drifting? versus surfing...
[13:42] <Djuna> in a rhizome ...
[13:42] <reiner> by loosing what forgotten we ------ get back ---- i hope
[13:43] <Surd> The intermedia of Bruno, the All remembered.
[13:43] <Djuna> ?
[13:43] <Surd> Bruno's vast house of memory...
[13:43] <carolyn> i'm not suggesting a religious experience by any stretch, but yes it's a new way of expanding and exploring the limits of our bodies, tom.
[13:43] <carolyn> you are referring to bill marsh's bruno's atria?
[13:43] <geniwate> i think the different ontologies that we currently experience--cyberspace, then nature, then thought or whatever--we will find a way to integrate these different experiences. Its a bit schizophrenic (used loosely) at the moment.
[13:44] <carolyn> i agree, geni.
[13:44] <reiner> - some real for the media kids ?
[13:44] <Djuna> and denying the validity of Cartesian duality in it's nay-saying to the body
[13:44] <t0om> schizoid, not schizophrenic.
[13:45] <geniwate> and hopefully that integration will create a new way of looking at the material world (including bodies), which is little less dualistic and exploitative
[13:46] <Djuna> d&g wouldn't agree Tom - I believe she means as they define it
[13:46] <Surd> Connected, yes, mind and body and people with one another.
[13:46] <geniwate> my topic is /nature/ rather the female body but I think many of the same issues are underneath
[13:47] <Surd> Yes, grounded similarly.
[13:47] ***carolyn has quit IRC (Connection reset by peer)
[13:47] <Surd> Underneath.
[13:47] <reiner> nature - a metaphor ?
[13:47] <PbN> oops Carolyn cratered
[13:47] <t0om> d&g are confused then i think
[13:47] <Surd> Carolyn overboard!
[13:47] <PbN> Who will lead the troops?
[13:48] <reiner> throw a lifebelt !
[13:48] <geniwate> no well 'nature' is a category that doesn't make sense to me--we've talked about this on the list--
[13:48] ***carolyn has joined #defib
[13:48] <PbN> YaY!
[13:48] <Djuna> in truth, I think they're all really connected anyway - as all ontological realms exist for us as concepts/perceptions/relations because of our minds/consciousness
[13:48] <Surd> Good to have you back in the dingy, Carolyn!
[13:49] <Djuna> welcome back!
[13:49] <carolyn> sorry. i lost my connection.
[13:49] <Surd> Give the poor woman a towel.
[13:49] <PbN> Well, after that bit of excitement...
[13:49] <Djuna> lol!
[13:49] <geniwate> yes they definitely are connected, but I think our ideological inheritance (modernism, romanticism) has obscured that
[13:49] <reiner> have you got the lifebelt?
[13:49] *PbN looks at his watch...
[13:49] <PbN> says, must go, been fun -- thank you all!
[13:50] <Surd> I have to get going soon too...
[13:50] <Surd> Thanks, Ted!
[13:50] <reiner> ciao ted
[13:50] <PbN> bye
[13:50] <geniwate> moi aussi; how do you do the star thingy?
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[13:50] <t0om> bye ted
[13:50] <Surd> I can't remember.
[13:50] <carolyn> gertrude stein talks about vision as being the only thing that changes from one generation to the next. marshall mcluhan, however, says that the new media gives us back an awareness of our other senses and puts vision in the back seat.
[13:50] <reiner> type /me and ......
[13:50] <Djuna> can you expand geni? how? I understand with romanticism, but modernism? you mean the industrial age's utopianism?
[13:51] <Djuna> bye
[13:51] *carolyn rings out her towel
[13:51] *Djuna like this?
[13:52] *reiner - yes :)
[13:52] *Surd jim checks the icebox
[13:52] *Djuna :)
[13:52] *carolyn wonders what is in jim's icebox.
[13:52] <t0om> time to take my daughter somewhere, bye all
[13:52] <carolyn> bye, tom.
[13:52] *Djuna has a new toy!
[13:52] *reiner ----- something to drink or eat or ?
[13:53] *Surd snacks prior to the Dinner Party
[13:53] <Djuna> bye
[13:53] <reiner> bye tom
[13:53] ***t0om has left #defib
[13:53] <Surd> Thanks, Tom.
[13:53] <geniwate> yes, and i think the scientific method (empiricism) which has kinda rule modernism actually reifies the idea that 'nature' (and medical science too) is something out there that we can observe objectively. And in a funny way this reconfirms the romanticist's belief that 'nature' is somehow different from us, but of course romanticism had transcendental reasons for doing this, do the reasons were different but the effect of distancing us from 'nat
[13:53] <Djuna> geni? did you see my ?
[13:53] <geniwate> yes; it just takes me a while to find the words
[13:54] <geniwate> but my article is nearly finished, i'll put it online for a little while...
[13:54] <carolyn> it explores the division of science and nature, geni?
[13:54] <Surd> Cool, send us the url for sure.
[13:54] *carolyn thinks that she missed this while in the water
[13:55] <Djuna> I think we must acknowledge that such ideas are only one strata of modernism (via the Enlightenment does not have it's roots in modernism anyway
[13:55] *reiner --- too much scalpels out - in the world - less integrity - modern and romantic
[13:55] <geniwate> my article (!!) firstly talks about the construction of 'nature' in a kinda foucauldian/barthesian way, then goes on to talk about how technoculture might allow us to reconceptualise the material world. All in 2500 words! And free steak knives!!
[13:56] *carolyn laughs
[13:56] <Djuna> lol!
[13:56] <Surd> ehehe
[13:56] <carolyn> very impressive.
[13:56] <geniwate> yes well it needs about 3 PhD thesis but one does what one can
[13:56] <carolyn> reconceptualize outside of the penopticon? or inside?
[13:57] <Djuna> penopticon?
[13:57] *reiner think the world is concept_less
[13:57] <carolyn> foucault's ultimate surveillance architecture -- the condition of the modern world, selon foucault.
[13:57] <Djuna> what?
[13:57] *reiner lost a 's' and a 'd'
[13:58] <geniwate> no I can't answer you carolyn. i'm really feeling my way here and don't use foucault in any strict sense, just as a way of talking about our concepts in terms of relations of power.
[13:58] <carolyn> fair enough.
[13:58] <Djuna> but the content reiner
[13:59] <Djuna> why 'ultimate surveillance'?
[13:59] <reiner> the content of what ?
[13:59] <Djuna> your statement about the world being conceptless -- why do you say/think that?
[14:00] <Surd> geni, if you are comfortable with sending me a stable url for the essay, I'll include a link in the transcript.
[14:00] <reiner> i --- thinking at Brecht ------ and the man who makes a plan (concept)
[14:00] <carolyn> foucault's panopticon had the 'inmate' police himself, in the sense that in this prison architecture one assumes that the guards are always watching, but one never knows for sure. it's his view on the modern condition, derived from jeremy bentham via george orwell.
[14:01] <Surd> extend the spoke-or wheel like-architecture of that so that everyone is a center
[14:01] <carolyn> exactly. and no one is exempt.
[14:01] <Surd> extending it forms a network
[14:02] <reiner> an ego_centric world_view ?
[14:02] <Surd> A reiner centric world view.
[14:02] <carolyn> the jailer is the hub at the center, the relentless eye of society.
[14:02] <Djuna> do you think this is exclusive to modern wo/man tho?
[14:02] <geniwate> guys I gotta go do some work. an accounting course website is calling me. not sure about the ethics of putting something online which has been committed to a conference and possibly a book, but would love the feedback. so I think I'll make the article available for a limited time, sometime this week. So it would be misleading to put it in the transcript as it won't be permanently there... thanks anyway...
[14:03] <Djuna> bye geni
[14:03] <Surd> Bye, Geni.
[14:03] <carolyn> no, claire. but i think that it is a condition that is much more apparent in modern society with modern technology.
[14:03] <reiner> you wan tto go ? really ?
[14:03] <geniwate> ...oh, I'm falling off! I'm falling...
[14:03] <carolyn> good luck with it, geni.
[14:03] ***geniwate has quit IRC (QUIT: User exited)
[14:03] <Djuna> that makes sense
[14:03] <Surd> Watch out for the sharks, Geni.
[14:04] <Djuna> but she has knives!
[14:04] <Surd> Yes!
[14:04] <carolyn> bentham saw it as means of crowd control in the nineteenth century.
[14:04] *carolyn thinks they were steak knives not shark knives
[14:05] *Djuna Djuna hopes they're shark stakes only
[14:05] <Surd> She's pretty able with them though.
[14:05] *carolyn rummages in her toolbox
[14:05] <Djuna> lol!
[14:05] <Surd> Throw here a shark knife.
[14:05] *carolyn finds a turkey baster
[14:05] <Djuna> lol!
[14:05] *carolyn starts a water fight
[14:06] <Surd> It might work.
[14:06] *carolyn squirts claire in the eye
[14:06] ***YALNIZ has joined #defib
[14:06] *Djuna can't see! Ach!
[14:06] *Surd Jim hands Claire a towel.
[14:06] *carolyn hands claire a towel, already soaking wet
[14:07] *Djuna says you're not playing fair! I'm tool-less!
[14:07] *carolyn thinks jim's is probably drier
[14:07] *Surd Jim is using the mIRC safety belt.
[14:07] <Djuna> ?me thinks we are being very silly
[14:07] <carolyn> you've got a problem with that?
[14:07] *reiner is astonished about ..... what is going on here
[14:08] <carolyn> mama reiner, can you impose some control?
[14:08] *Surd Jim hands Reiner the fishing rod.
[14:08] *reiner is looking out of the screen
[14:08] *reiner is throwing pixel ........
[14:08] *Surd Jim thinks the dingy is whale driven.
[14:09] ***YALNIZ has left #defib
[14:09] <carolyn> perhaps we are at an end of this discussion? or is this just us changing modes?
[14:09] <reiner> ...... sorry to be late
[14:09] <Surd> I have to go, yes, it's been great!
[14:09] <Djuna> [will this be in the transcript? i think it's a very nice ending -- :)
[14:09] <carolyn> thank you so very much, all of you, for coming and chatting.
[14:09] <Surd> Thanks so much, all, especially Carolyn!
[14:09] <reiner> well ----- will leave too -----
[14:10] *carolyn finds a skewer in her toolbox
[14:10] <reiner> with two women in a chat room ----- too dangerous
[14:10] <carolyn> what do you mean?
[14:10] <Djuna> it was really good - Jim, if you're too tied up to work on the trans. I'll help
[14:10] *Surd Jim reaches for the dock.
[14:10] <Djuna> as my aching back permits that is --
[14:10] <carolyn> we can even use safety matches all by ourselves.
[14:10] <Surd> Thank you my dear
[14:10] <carolyn> thanks, jim. it has been grand.
[14:10] <Surd> Yes, it has.
[14:11] <carolyn> take care of that back, claire.
[14:11] <reiner> fine as always jim
[14:11] <Surd> Thanks, Reiner.
[14:11] <carolyn> bye all.
[14:11] <Djuna> bye all
[14:11] <reiner> bye alllllllll
[14:11] <Surd> Bye, all.
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[14:11] <carolyn> psst, claire. feeling better?
[14:11] *Surd Jim sees us sitting in the boat at the dock.
[14:12] <Djuna> a bit, not whole yet though. how are you?
[14:12] <carolyn> dying. time to go. thanks for coming.
[14:12] *Surd Got to go clean the fish, ladies.
[14:12] <Surd> 8-)
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Session Close: Sun Mar 05 14:12:52 2000

Mar 5/2000
a project of &