14:00 - 14:32
[14:00] <glory> jackdaw flies onto steve's bookcase
[14:00] <Cleo> it's just moving into their turf i imagine - as if anyone had 'ownership' of a form!
[14:01] <Surd> usually it is not lettristic, for instance, down to the letter where the image can explode from perhaps more dominatively than from a longer text...
[14:01] <glory> jackdaw:
[14:01] <Surd> glory bless you
[14:02] <steve_d> it's pretty dusty up there
[14:02] <Cleo> do you feel any particular allegience steve?
[14:02] <glory> it's the dust
[14:02] <PbN> Steve, you have heard of 'code poetry' -- a notion that interests me -- you, too?
[14:03] <PbN> 'code po' might be related to lang po?!? anyone?
[14:03] <steve_d> not allegiance, as such, but i tend to avoid "philosophy" as poetry
[14:03] <Cleo> hmmm ...
[14:04] <Cleo> what do you mean by that philos. as poetry)
[14:04] <Cleo> (philos. as poetry - sorry
[14:04] <steve_d> first heard of "code poetry" on webartery but i think i was aware of its existance - a tendency, perhaps
[14:05] <Cleo> re: content
[14:05] <Cleo> ?
[14:05] <steve_d> philos = thoughts
[14:06] *Cleo grumble grumble ...
[14:06] <PbN> yes, possibly (heavily?) connected with programming code...
[14:06] <joecow> claire I think there is some so-called langpo that leaves people cold because of its overtly ideological or otherwise intellectual content
[14:07] <Cleo> i think so ted - both more about form than content. even solely maybe ...
[14:07] <PbN> no
[14:07] <steve_d> bits of code that speak, log files on the hd, etc
[14:08] <steve_d> when the interface collapses and the code shows thru
[14:08] <joecow> i wasn't sure what "code poetry" refers to
[14:08] *PbN does not see code po as more form than content... nor as less
[14:08] <joecow> i can see at least two distinct tendencies:
[14:08] <steve_d> i agree there, ted
[14:08] <joecow> exteriorizing code as visual object
[14:08] <PbN> when code shows through -- like Jim's 'neath text'...
[14:09] <Surd> Yes, your work has an emotional or experiential, sometimes lyrical basis... love and relationships... fear and pain... yet it is also related via the neath and the feel to 'poetry of ideas'?
[14:09] <joecow> as in many of ted's pages or brian lennon's or jodi's
[14:09] <joecow> and on the other hand
[14:09] <joecow> the poetics of "architecture" of code, as jim has it
[14:10] <Cleo> but the image is content, I think - as an abstract - I believe i was unclear earlier
[14:10] <joecow> ie - the beauty of the working code itself
[14:10] <PbN> structure itself can be elegance, too
[14:10] <steve_d> text extracted from binary files - just as is comes dislocated, and ...
[14:11] <Cleo> and that's a meaning/content. but, for lots of lang poets it's not, you must admit.
[14:11] <glory> jackdaw pecks at spine of a ted hughes book
[14:11] <steve_d> meaningful nevertheless
[14:12] <steve_d> crow
[14:12] <joecow> yes, ted - my only hesitation re this route is the fact that, for all the great coding webartists are doing, working programmers are just doing way more amazing and also beautiful stuff
[14:12] <PbN> yes
[14:12] <PbN> but not usually as interesting
[14:13] <PbN> I'm a working prog, too
[14:13] <Cleo> i don't know - i've been looked at the 'in crowds' net-art work - it's generally pretty banal and redundent, and ugly too.
[14:13] <joecow> point taken
[14:13] *PbN differentiates work and art
[14:14] <Surd> who are you thinkig of, joe?
[14:14] <joecow> surd : as far as coding goes?
[14:14] <Surd> yes
[14:14] <PbN> C, agree, mostly
[14:15] <joecow> well, my point would be that there is an artistic interest in code for code's sake -
[14:15] <joecow> as in your work in stirfry texts
[14:15] <Cleo> of course there are exceptions to every ...)
[14:15] <joecow> or some of ted's pieces
[14:15] <joecow> or jodi or m9ndfuck or mediaboy
[14:16] <joecow> i get very wrapped up in the structure of my own code
[14:16] <joecow> this is interesting to me
[14:16] <joecow> but sometimes i think
[14:16] <Cleo> ...
[14:16] <joecow> if a person who does some hardcore database or AI programming
[14:16] <joecow> were to look at it,
[14:17] <joecow> it just would not seem very impressive, purely as code
[14:17] <joecow> i don't know if this matters
[14:17] <joecow> just thinking out loud
[14:17] <joecow> i'll shut up now
[14:17] <glory> jackdaw hops onto floor in search of crumbs
[14:17] <eliza> Steve, the visuals in your Debris are kind of like the way concrete poets used type elements, rather than being 'pictures' aren't they? Will you move more towards actual pictures do you think/intend?
[14:17] <Cleo> so what? we're talking apples and oranges here i think.
[14:17] <PbN> agreed, but no need to stop, Joe
[14:18] <Cleo> intent
[14:18] <steve_d> i do intend to use pictures - i'm working on a couple of things now
[14:18] <Cleo> context
[14:18] <Surd> right, code as a thing in itself... what is lovely?
[14:19] <joecow> yes I guess intent would be the distinguishing factor
[14:19] <joecow> in that your hardcore coder is not seeing what we might
[14:19] <joecow> or is certainly not mobilizing their code to the same ends
[14:19] <glory> jackdaw: lovely is code
[14:19] <joecow> which comes around to the content question, claire
[14:20] <Cleo> messy messy ...
[14:20] <joecow> what is lovely....
[14:20] <joecow> messy is lovely?
[14:21] <Cleo> messes can be lovely:)
[14:21] <Surd> Actually, I have had occasion to appreciate *just how good* some of us are recently in code by contrast with some work I've seen by pro teams concerning the details, attention to the details...
[14:21] <Cleo> Raushenberg ... Schwitters ... i'm swooning .... delight..
[14:22] <joecow> yes or Beckett said something re form to let the mess in
[14:22] <glory> jackdaw messes on the floor
[14:22] <Surd> I mean, I think that the care and attention and detail of some of the coding work I see in webart is more than you get from people working for the man.
[14:22] <steve_d> access codes for the unconscious
[14:22] <Cleo> I'm amazed at the coding messes some people send cauldron - people who should 'know' better ...
[14:22] <PbN> here, code is content, which is to say, they are indistinguishable, often. And form, often *is* content vis-a-vis HTML programming...
[14:23] <PbN> Mark Amerika has written some good things about code/content/form in cyberspace
[14:23] <PbN> Well, I thought they were pretty good
[14:24] <Cleo> we believe you ted, it's okay ...
[14:24] <PbN> :)
[14:24] <Cleo> lol!
[14:24] <Surd> The knowledge of javascript is really good, for instance, and of dhtml.
[14:25] <PbN> I just am not so sure it is desirable/possible to separate things on the old lines
[14:25] <Cleo> (i LOVE my cyberspace friends!} [ btw]
[14:25] <Surd> The only non-pro element is attention to cross-browser and cross-platform issues, knowledge of gotchas between platforms and browsers.
[14:25] <PbN> that's a pro-job thing, Jim
[14:26] <glory> love is a code
[14:26] <PbN> and code a love
[14:26] <Surd> yeah, Ted, definitely
[14:26] <joecow> lust
[14:26] <steve_d> envy
[14:26] <glory> lust is mess
[14:26] <PbN> so, anyone PC?
[14:26] <PbN> ;)
[14:26] <Cleo> you know what's strange, is browsers seem to be almost age oriented - lately looking at all this work by 'whiz kids' and lot's of it is "IE only"
[14:27] <eliza> & Steve's optimised for IE... must be a whiz kids, or else his kids are
[14:27] <Cleo> !
[14:28] <joecow> IE really pulled out front with the v5 document object model
[14:28] <joecow> i still think NS is a better browser
[14:28] <steve_d> my kids are playstation and megadrive emulator only at the moment
[14:28] <Surd> How old are they, Steve?
[14:28] <Cleo> well, it can do more i've heard - but it seems a bit undemocratic to make non cross-browser work - if you can help it that is.
[14:28] <glory> jackdaw: caw caw
[14:29] <steve_d> 10 and 11
[14:29] <Surd> What is megadrive emulator?
[14:29] <Cleo> games ...
[14:29] <steve_d> emulators run play console games on a pc
[14:30] <Surd> ah...
[14:30] <Cleo> urgh ...
[14:30] <joecow> claire i really wonder how many people actually have only one or the other
[14:30] <Cleo> brb -
[14:30] <eliza> I bet they're writing all his code...
[14:30] <Surd> ehehe
[14:30] ***noname has joined #defib
[14:30] ***glory has quit IRC (Connection reset by peer.)
[14:30] <steve_d> i favour msie for historical reasons but i find it pretty good
[14:31] <PbN> bird overboard, Jim
[14:31] <Surd> get the net
[14:31] <PbN> I'm NS all the way
[14:31] <steve_d> i wonder of we will eventually have emulators for old web works
[14:32] <noname> hi everybody

May 7/2000
a project of