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David Knoebel @ Defib March 19, 2000
Part 1
Subject: rescheduling
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 01:43:19 -0800/
From: "Jim Andrews" <jim@vispo.com>
David, would you like to reschedule for next Sunday?
My apologies for the applet.
Jim
Subject: Re: rescheduling
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 13:12:48 -0500
From: David Knoebel <clkpoet@ptdprolog.net>
No apologies necessary, Jim. Stuff happens; it's one of the joys of
being in this line of work. Next Sunday won't work for me, though.
I felt discouraged yesterday, until I looked over the elogs. The
messages there constitute a good chat, although not in the form we
expected. The last section alone, beginning with your notice of a chat
in fifteen minutes, through the ensuing intimations of trouble, on to
the decision to cancel, and finally the message from Helen announcing a
subsequent chat (la la la la life goes on), makes a good read. The
earlier list messages cover a lot of the issues regarding my work.
I'd be happy to call that the chat. For the archive, I'd put all the
messages together with some annotations, images, and a small 3D piece
that incorporates a selection of the foregoing messages. Perhaps a note
at the beginning to explain the deviation from the norm.
What do you think?
David
Subject: Re: rescheduling
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 20:23:13 -0800
From: "Jim Andrews" <jim@vispo.com>
It's weird enough for me, David. Sounds quite interesting, actually, though I
had to think about it.
Send it my way, man.
The more I think about it the more I like it.
Regards,
Jim.
Part 2:
Subject: [webartery] David Knoebel at Defib this Sunday
Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 21:42:20 -0800
From: "Jim Andrews" <jim@vispo.com>
David Knoebel is featured at Defib this coming Sunday. As with the session with
Carolyn, I think it could be good to take up David's concerns this week prior to
Defib. And David is going to keep an eye on the email at webartery and perhaps
incorporate parts of it into the transcript.
David, thought I'd let you have the first stab at this. What have you been up to
lately?
Regards,
Jim.
Subject: Re: [webartery] David Knoebel at Defib this Sunday
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 12:48:52 -0500
From: David Knoebel <clkpoet@ptdprolog.net>
> What have you been up to lately?
Pulling my hair out mostly, but recent VRML pieces are listed below,
along with indoor/outdoor poems. The VRML poems display with a
java applet. No VRML plugin is required, just a java enabled browser.
I've always been skeptical about interactivity as implemented through
clicks and overs. Not that I'm against that sort of interactivity;
rather, I'm cautious about when and how I use it. I try to remember that
the essential interactivity is in the mind of the beholder.
My pieces are usually short. I think I'm a genetic minimalist (less is
more, and more is better), but I think this preference also comes from
the recognition that a lot of people don't read very far into a
multi-page work. I build my pieces by putting together a few simple
elements. The interest for me is in the elements' interactions. These
are generally not simple and their complexity may increase geometrically
as the number of elements increases arithmetically. When I start to make
larger pieces, I'll build them by putting smaller ones together, on the
model of, say, a coral reef. The reader could start anywhere in the
structure, stay for a short time or a longer time, and come away with a
complete experience in either case.
I'm more a handyman than an architect. I have great difficulty with
theory as propounded by Foucault et al. I just can't make it work for
me. My eyes glaze over and my mind skids across the prose like Bambi on
ice. I'd rather read a phone book. I can journey from the great
continent of Smith to the small island chain of Smolinsky, thence to the
lonely Szyska and on to the sudden apparition of Taafe. Other sources of
inspiration are maps, dictionaries, mail order catalogs, and hot
showers.
VRML POEMS
See This
http://www.clickpoetry.com/seethis/seethis.html
A Fine View
http://www.clickpoetry.com/fineview/fineview.html
Oh, ver 3.14
http://www.clickpoetry.com/ohanf/oh.html
INDOOR/OUTDOOR POEMS:
Dream/Fall
http://www.clickpoetry.com/dream/dream.html
More Joy
http://www.clickpoetry.com/morejoy/morejoy.html
Three Billboards
http://www.clickpoetry.com/clickbb0.html
Subject: Re: [webartery] David Knoebel at Defib this Sunday
Date Wed, 15 Mar 2000 15:23:50
From: Ted Warnell <warnell@memlane.com>
Alas, David -- my Java-enabled browser hates Java,
and I am not able to run your newest VRMLs, though
still am able to view your other fine works... Ted
(Three Billboards is super!)
Subject: Re: [webartery] David Knoebel at Defib this Sunday
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 17:32:39
From: Ted Warnell <warnell@memlane.com>
"...when we drive down the street, we are surrounded by words that pass
us by. Driving home, we encounter the same signs we saw on the way to
work, in reverse order. Trips around town, to the gas station, the
supermarket, or the post office, reveal additional orderings of the
same set of signs. The words become part of other events in our field
of vision. They are no longer bound to a single continuous surface or
to a preordained sequence."
- David Knoebel
David, have long been intrigued by this idea -- that you relate words
on signs (and elsewhere in the world) to words (typically) in books
or on the screen -- do you see all these words in space as a kind
of poetry (of sorts) -- do you take inspiration from this ? Ted
Subject: Re: [webartery] David Knoebel at Defib this Sunday
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 16:42:01 -0600
From: Thomas Bell <trbell@home.com>
David,
On the whole
simple but elegant
minimal
fine FINE
work. No need to apologize for 'lack of interest in theory - I think
you've put it into practice, if there is an it to it.
Have you thought about doing print or printable versions of any of
them? I'd be interested in any outcome.
tom
Subject: Re: [webartery] David Knoebel at Defib this Sunday
Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 09:51:50 +1100
From: The Fleshtronic <mezandwalt@wollongong.starway.net.au>
At 04:42 PM 15/03/00 -0600, you wrote:
>From: Thomas Bell <trbell@home.com>
>
>David,
> On the whole
>simple but elegant
>minimal
>fine FINE
>work.
mammoth dittoh.
[mez, humbelled]
Subject: RE: [webartery] David Knoebel at Defib this Sunday
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 14:57:15 -0800
From: "bill marsh" <wmarsh@nu.edu>
funny -- after viewing david's 3d pieces for about 5 minutes, simple
scrolling through the email window gave me a 3d effect -- i guess that's
something like "sea legs" or "elevator vertigo" -- anyone else finding
themselves needing to be "straightened" after viewing 3d?
Subject: RE: [webartery] David Knoebel at Defib this Sunday
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 15:04:18 -0800
From: "Talan Memmott" talan@percepticon.com
> From: "bill marsh" <wmarsh@nu.edu>
>
> funny -- after viewing david's 3d pieces for about 5 minutes, simple
> scrolling through the email window gave me a 3d effect -- i
> guess that's
> something like "sea legs" or "elevator vertigo" -- anyone else finding
> themselves needing to be "straightened" after viewing 3d?
>
Felt it a bit.... Did find myself dodging words when I was looking at the
pieces... Took some dramamine and now I am all better.
Subject: Re: [webartery] David Knoebel at Defib this Sunday
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 20:29:47 -0500
From: Jennifer Ley <anemone@sprynet.com>
David Knoebel wrote:
>
> See This
> http://www.clickpoetry.com/seethis/seethis.html
I liked the writing in this David ... and felt like Mom myself ... people
are right about the vertigo ... now you've said you like a minimal esthetic
and I can't help but wonder what this would look like with some out of
focus season light ... streaks etc. Probably too literal ;)
Jen
Subject: Re: [webartery] David Knoebel at Defib this Sunday
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 22:47:26 -0800
From: "Jim Andrews" <jim@vispo.com>
> From: David Knoebel <clkpoet@ptdprolog.net>
>
> > What have you been up to lately?
>
> Pulling my hair out mostly, but recent VRML pieces are listed below,
> along with indoor/outdoor poems. The VRML poems display with a
> java applet. No VRML plugin is required, just a java enabled browser.
I think I ran across some of your hair in space there, David. Nice work!
> I've always been skeptical about interactivity as implemented through
> clicks and overs. Not that I'm against that sort of interactivity;
> rather, I'm cautious about when and how I use it. I try to remember that
> the essential interactivity is in the mind of the beholder.
Personally I like pieces that involve that sort of reading, David, if the
available choices are revelatory or delightfully surprising or lead me into an
engrossing construction. To think in these terms, also, I find interesting as a
maker of things. The essential interactivity, yes, it's in the mind of the
beholder, but not just 'beholder': the maker in interaction with the piece and
with the writer.
> My pieces are usually short.
> I think I'm a genetic minimalist (less is
> more, and more is better), but I think this preference also comes from
> the recognition that a lot of people don't read very far into a
> multi-page work.
Depends on the piece and the reader. Some people seem to like long works whether
webified or novelistic. But, like you, my own imagination inclines me to shorter
work, just seems that's how I work; seems to be the same with you. Part of the
idea being to pack lots into one page, at least conceptually.
> I build my pieces by putting together a few simple
> elements. The interest for me is in the elements' interactions.
Ah, so it's the interaction of the things themselves that you focus on. And the
contemplation of that. Well, you know, you could say the same, really, when the
interaction also involves clicking around or mouseover, I mean the interaction
is not just between the piece and the wreader but between the things on screen,
otherwise it's hard to see how the action could be revealing or constructive.
> These are generally not simple and their complexity may increase
> geometrically, as the number of elements increases arithmetically.
Well yes indeed, there being 2 to the n subsets of n things.
> When I start to make larger pieces, I'll build them by putting smaller ones together,
> on the model of, say, a coral reef. The reader could start anywhere in the
> structure, stay for a short time or a longer time, and come away with a
> complete experience in either case.
Nice. Not a rhizomatic but a coral reefic, sort of fractal. How is the
completion in the part or the shorter vs the longer time? Can you give an
example?
Subject: Re: [webartery] David Knoebel at Defib this Sunday
Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 04:39:48 -0500
From: Barry Smylie <barrysmylie@home.com>
> > http://www.clickpoetry.com/seethis/seethis.html
Beauties...
Subject: Re: [webartery] David Knoebel at Defib this Sunday
Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 14:12:11 -0500
From: David Knoebel <clkpoet@ptdprolog.net>
Ted wrote:
> do you see all these words in space as a kind of poetry (of sorts)
I see the potential. It's a field of words and there's poetry to be
found there. The spaces between the words and the differing media
contribute expressive possibilities. I'd like to do all the signs in
Times Square, starting with the street signs, continuing on through the
store signs and then to those big billboards. A wordscape minus the
adverts.
Tom wrote:
> Have you thought about doing print or printable versions of any of them?
Odd. I know you've been working on that, but I hadn't thought of it in
terms of my own work until you mentioned it. Thanks.
Bill and Talan and Jen referred to:
> "sea legs" or "elevator vertigo"
Glad you pointed this out. I'll see if it can be ameliorated somehow.
Jim wrote:
> I like pieces that involve that sort of reading, if the available choices are
revelatory or delightfully surprising or lead me into an
engrossing construction.
Me too, but my own work hasn't gotten me there yet.
> > The reader could start anywhere in the structure, stay for a short time or a longer
time, and come away with a complete experience in either case.
>
> Not a rhizomatic but a coral reefic, sort of fractal. How is the completion in the part
or the shorter vs the longer time? Can you give an example?
This is one of those ideas that's simmering away in the back of my head.
Not sure how to implement it, but an example from fiction might be a
collection of short stories, each of which is complete in itself, whose
meanings are enhanced by the other stories in the collection. I'm not
thinking of simple juxtaposition (although that can be compelling- think
of the umbrella and sewing machine together on the operating table), but
of some encompassing, yet not too rigid, structural principle.
Jen wrote:
> I can't help but wonder what this would look like with some out of focus season light
Funny you should say that. I started out with color and a background. I
often do, but they get deleted along with a bunch of other stuff. I like
revising as much as (maybe more than) I like writing the first draft. If
I were a whittler, I'd start with a log and end with a toothpick.
Thanks all for your thoughtful comments. I'm looking forward to live
chat Sunday.
Subject: Re: [webartery] David Knoebel at Defib this Sunday
Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 17:46:37
From: Ted Warnell <warnell@memlane.com>
>From: Jennifer Ley <anemone@sprynet.com>
>
>
>
>bill marsh wrote:
>>
>> From: "bill marsh" <wmarsh@nu.edu>
>>
>> > Bill and Talan and Jen referred to:
>> >
>> > > "sea legs" or "elevator vertigo"
>> >
>> > Glad you pointed this out. I'll see if it can be ameliorated somehow.
>>
>> david -- just so you know, this wasn't a critique of the 3d pieces, but
>> rather, for my sake at least, a phenomenon i experience when coming back to
>> a 2d space
>
>
>and I didn't mean it as a critique/thing to be changed either ... just
>an observation ;) mess with us David ... we love it !!
>
>Jennifer
David --
looks like you're on to something... and I haven't even seen it,
but love to be messed with anyway :)
T.
Subject: RE: [webartery] David Knoebel at Defib this Sunday
Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 15:31:46 -0800
From: "bill marsh" wmarsh@nu.edu
> Bill and Talan and Jen referred to:
>
> > "sea legs" or "elevator vertigo"
>
> Glad you pointed this out. I'll see if it can be ameliorated somehow.
david -- just so you know, this wasn't a critique of the 3d pieces, but
rather, for my sake at least, a phenomenon i experience when coming back to
a 2d space (like email) after viewing your work -- my eyes for a few seconds
registerd 3d movement even though i was back in a 2d space -- twas an echo
of the previous experience registering on the current -- thus the metaphor
of sea legs...
i *liked* it (he says with a drunken grin)
bill
Subject: RE: [webartery] David Knoebel at Defib this Sunday
Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 15:55:43 -0800
From: "Talan Memmott" <talan@percepticon.com>
> From: "bill marsh" <wmarsh@nu.edu>
>
> david -- just so you know, this wasn't a critique of the 3d
> pieces, but
> rather, for my sake at least, a phenomenon i experience when
> coming back to
> a 2d space (like email) after viewing your work -- my eyes
> for a few seconds
> registerd 3d movement even though i was back in a 2d space --
> twas an echo
> of the previous experience registering on the current -- thus
> the metaphor
> of sea legs...
>
> i *liked* it (he says with a drunken grin)
>
> bill
>
i second, bill's feelings here. something like visual inertia....
Subject: Re: [webartery] David Knoebel at Defib this Sunday
Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 19:21:22 -0500
From: Jennifer Ley <anemone@sprynet.com>
bill marsh wrote:
>
> From: "bill marsh" <wmarsh@nu.edu>
>
> > Bill and Talan and Jen referred to:
> >
> > > "sea legs" or "elevator vertigo"
> >
> > Glad you pointed this out. I'll see if it can be ameliorated somehow.
>
> david -- just so you know, this wasn't a critique of the 3d pieces, but
> rather, for my sake at least, a phenomenon i experience when coming back to
> a 2d space
and I didn't mean it as a critique/thing to be changed either ... just
an observation ;) mess with us David ... we love it !!
Jennifer
Subject: [webartery] spirit bones and mojo shards
Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 00:04:22 -0800
From: "Jim Andrews" <jim@vispo.com>
I like your point about the virtue of short pieces, David. You say that whether
they visit briefly or for a longer time, they can still sort a git it. Like if
you hear a song, you just have to hear it for a couple of minutes to get the
spirit of it, whether it's by a great composer or somebody else. Do the doo the
spirit mind most and all the rest is not extra but the line of the spirit is
strongest and bones the rest of it.
Cool.
J
Part 3:
Subject: [webartery] DAVID KNOEBEL AT DEFIB THIS SUNDAY
Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 20:41:38 -0800
From: "Jim Andrews" <jim@vispo.com>
This Sunday (March 19) the feature at Defib is David Knoebel. David's URL for
Click Poetry is http://www.clickpoetry.com
David says:
"I'm interested in hearing about peoples' experience of rhythms in their
creative cycles, and about dealing with creative down time. Also useful
tools, setups, and strategies for getting work out at crunch time. Day
to day stuff. The Car Guys. "
I'm also interested in hearing more about the recent vrml and spatial work, and
about his sign work. I'm sure you'll have your own questions and issues for
David tomorrow.
Hope to see you in the Defib dinghy.
Point your browser at http://webartery.com and click Defib.
Defib: 1st and 3rd Sundays
12 noon pst
3pm EST
8pm GMT
6am Queensland
Subject: [webartery] Defib
Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 11:44:35 -0800
From: "Jim Andrews" <jim@vispo.com>
Got yer coffee? Defib sails in 15 minutes (12noon pst, 3pm est, 8pm gmt, 6am
Queensland).
David Knoebel is featured this week.
Point your browser at http://webartery.com and click Defib.
We'll be doing a shorter Defib than usual today, it will last an hour.
j
Subject: [webartery] problems with Defib applet
Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 11:55:06 -0800
From: "Jim Andrews" <jim@vispo.com>
David, there seems to be some problem with the Defib applet today. Will wait a
few minutes. Suggestions?
I note that it isn't loading at the host site either, http://irc.ram-page.com
Jim.
Subject: Re: [webartery] problems with Defib applet
Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 15:14:37 -0500
From: David Knoebel <clkpoet@ptdprolog.net>
Wondered why I haven't been able to get on. It's 312PM here now. I'll
keep trying.
Subject: Re: [webartery] problems with Defib applet
Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 15:17:22 -0500
From: David Knoebel <clkpoet@ptdprolog.net>
FWIW, it worked this morning.
Subject: Re: [webartery] problems with Defib applet
Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 00:29:12 -0800
From: "Marjorie C. Luesebrink" <luesebr1@ix.netcom.com>
Dear Jim--
I guess this message is for everyone? I can't get anything to happen on the Defib
site--?
Subject: Re: [webartery] problems with Defib applet
Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 13:16:53
From: Ted Warnell <warnell@memlane.com>
Direct IRC is possible -- via mIRC or similar --
the problem is with the Web/java...
Ted
Subject: Re: [webartery] problems with Defib applet
Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 15:23:01 -0500
From: David Knoebel <clkpoet@ptdprolog.net>
> Direct IRC is possible -- via mIRC or similar --
I don't have the IRC client installed. !@#$%
Subject: [webartery] problems with Defib applet today
Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 12:09:14 -0800
From: "Jim Andrews" <jim@vispo.com>
Alternatives:
1. Reschedule
2. Anybody have an alternate chat site we can use?
David, how do you feel?
Subject: Re: [webartery] problems with Defib applet today
Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 15:20:09 -0500
From: David Knoebel <clkpoet@ptdprolog.net>
I'd suggest re-scheduling. We may not be able to notify all the others
of the new address, if they don't check in here.
Subject: [webartery] Defib is cancelled today
Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 12:16:17 -0800
From: "Jim Andrews" <jim@vispo.com>
OK, David. Apologies to you!
We will
1. Reschedule
2. Secure an alternate chat site not through irc.ram-page.com (this will happen
again). Suggestions?
Subject: Re: [webartery] Defib is cancelled today
Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 15:32:30 -0500
From: David Knoebel <clkpoet@ptdprolog.net>
Sigh. Thanks to all of you who tried to attend. Looking forward to
Loss's show on April 2.
best,
David
Subject: Re: [webartery] Defib is cancelled today
Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 13:44:32
From: Ted Warnell <warnell@memlane.com>
Yeah, Defib blew a fuse today -- sorry to miss you, David, and look
forward to whenever it can be done, and to hearing Loss (that's
hearing Loss not hearing loss) -- whatever... all best,
Ted
Subject: Re: [webartery] Defib is cancelled today
Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 12:38:04 -0800
From: Randy Adams <runran@mail.island.net>
:-(
Subject: [webartery] Defib cancelled
Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 20:51:37 -0000
From: "Whitehead, Helen" <helen.whitehead@ntu.ac.uk>
So sorry Defib is cancelled, I was having trouble getting in, thought it was
just me....
Well, if you're missing your chat fix tonight come and meet the new trAce
writer-in-residence, Alan McDonald, at the trAce chatroom, 9 pm GMT.
http://hum-webboard.ntu.ac.uk/~trace
and click on Chat for the applet version
or IRC to hum-webboard.ntu.ac.uk:7000 and join the #trace channel
Helen
End
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