From jim at vispo.com  Mon Mar 19 13:04:52 2018
From: jim at vispo.com (Jim Andrews)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2018 11:04:52 -0700
Subject: [x] Nio,
 Jig-Sound and the Heap as an Interactive Form of Music--and War Pigs
In-Reply-To: <c2969806-2195-e110-d4c3-434e610d506c@vispo.com>
References: <c2969806-2195-e110-d4c3-434e610d506c@vispo.com>
Message-ID: <a7613889-19d7-3465-9bd3-c3fbfccb3712@vispo.com>

NIO, JIG-SOUND AND THE HEAP AS AN INTERACTIVE FORM OF MUSIC

A 10 minute video I just finished about some of my interactive audio
work: https://youtu.be/FcGEMHPhMVw

And here's a new video about another interactive music piece: War Pigs:
https://youtu.be/nCo4d5fURoo

ja
http://vispo.com




From ben at ekran.org  Mon Mar 19 13:20:45 2018
From: ben at ekran.org (B. Bogart)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2018 11:20:45 -0700
Subject: [x] Watching and Dreaming | Capture Photography Festival
Message-ID: <98ac0ab4-668f-3f08-dff1-df80676b403b@ekran.org>

Hello All,

I just wanted to share that I'll be having my first major exhibition in
Vancouver next month:

http://capturephotofest.com/exhibitions/watching-and-dreaming/

I'll be showing three single channel AV works, Watching (Blade Runner,
2001: A Space Odyssey, and TRON), and three large scale light-boxes
(thanks to the support of the BC Arts Council!) at the Surrey Art
Gallery TechLab.

There will also be a talk / discussion between Jim Bizzocchi and I on
June 2nd:

http://www.surrey.ca/culture-recreation/26219.aspx

Ben



From coleslauralee at gmail.com  Mon Mar 19 13:33:56 2018
From: coleslauralee at gmail.com (Laura Lee Coles)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2018 11:33:56 -0700
Subject: [x] Watching and Dreaming | Capture Photography Festival
In-Reply-To: <98ac0ab4-668f-3f08-dff1-df80676b403b@ekran.org>
References: <98ac0ab4-668f-3f08-dff1-df80676b403b@ekran.org>
Message-ID: <CAHtHAHAo8j--QOpTmPueT=JE4d19BADh3NR8L337T=GgMoEh+g@mail.gmail.com>

Ben, Congrats.

I'm going to miss the opening unfortunately.  Would have loved to be
there!,\

 I'm leaving next week for Hawai'i until first week of May.  I bought a
place there so I am there off and on 6 months out of the year.

I'll come June 2nd!

Best wishes for a successful opening.


Laura Lee

On Mon, Mar 19, 2018 at 11:20 AM, B. Bogart <ben at ekran.org> wrote:

> Hello All,
>
> I just wanted to share that I'll be having my first major exhibition in
> Vancouver next month:
>
> http://capturephotofest.com/exhibitions/watching-and-dreaming/
>
> I'll be showing three single channel AV works, Watching (Blade Runner,
> 2001: A Space Odyssey, and TRON), and three large scale light-boxes
> (thanks to the support of the BC Arts Council!) at the Surrey Art
> Gallery TechLab.
>
> There will also be a talk / discussion between Jim Bizzocchi and I on
> June 2nd:
>
> http://www.surrey.ca/culture-recreation/26219.aspx
>
> Ben
>
> _______________________________________________
> x mailing list
> x at vispo.com
> http://vispo.com/mailman/listinfo/x_vispo.com
>



-- 

Laura Lee Coles, MA
Interdisciplinary Artist
Arts-based Researcher, Curator & Writer
Founder and Project Specialist LocoMotoArt Collective & IMAPON

Member:  Canadian Academy of Independent Scholars
Member:  Community Scholars
Member:  Creative Cities

Artist site:
http://lauraleecoles.weebly.com

Organization sites:
Blog:http://locomotoart.weebly.com/
Research:  www.locomotoart.com
Art Residency Partnership:
http://vancouver.ca/parks-recreation-culture/loco-moto-art-collective.aspx
http://vancouver.ca/parks-recreation-culture/field-house-studio-residencies-in-parks.aspx

A video of the exhibition LocoMotoArt@ Queen Elizabeth Park
http://vimeo.com/71615795
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From jim at vispo.com  Mon Mar 19 14:28:57 2018
From: jim at vispo.com (Jim Andrews)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2018 12:28:57 -0700
Subject: [x] Watching and Dreaming | Capture Photography Festival
In-Reply-To: <98ac0ab4-668f-3f08-dff1-df80676b403b@ekran.org>
References: <98ac0ab4-668f-3f08-dff1-df80676b403b@ekran.org>
Message-ID: <036af25c-21ed-1060-67a5-3859767f6f40@vispo.com>

Hi Ben,

I look forward to experiencing your show. Could you please post a 
reminder close to the Sat Apr 14 opening reception?

ja


On 3/19/2018 11:20 AM, B. Bogart wrote:
> Hello All,
>
> I just wanted to share that I'll be having my first major exhibition in
> Vancouver next month:
>
> http://capturephotofest.com/exhibitions/watching-and-dreaming/
>
> I'll be showing three single channel AV works, Watching (Blade Runner,
> 2001: A Space Odyssey, and TRON), and three large scale light-boxes
> (thanks to the support of the BC Arts Council!) at the Surrey Art
> Gallery TechLab.
>
> There will also be a talk / discussion between Jim Bizzocchi and I on
> June 2nd:
>
> http://www.surrey.ca/culture-recreation/26219.aspx
>
> Ben
>
> _______________________________________________
> x mailing list
> x at vispo.com
> http://vispo.com/mailman/listinfo/x_vispo.com




From lic at telus.net  Mon Mar 19 14:43:31 2018
From: lic at telus.net (Julie Andreyev)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2018 12:43:31 -0700
Subject: [x] Watching and Dreaming | Capture Photography Festival
Message-ID: <68A7B5D4-ECF4-4C35-BF54-A06167DEAD9E@telus.net>

congratulations Ben!

Julie
> On Mar 19, 2018, at 11:20 AM, B. Bogart <ben at ekran.org> wrote:
> 
> Hello All,
> 
> I just wanted to share that I'll be having my first major exhibition in
> Vancouver next month:
> 
> http://capturephotofest.com/exhibitions/watching-and-dreaming/
> 
> I'll be showing three single channel AV works, Watching (Blade Runner,
> 2001: A Space Odyssey, and TRON), and three large scale light-boxes
> (thanks to the support of the BC Arts Council!) at the Surrey Art
> Gallery TechLab.
> 
> There will also be a talk / discussion between Jim Bizzocchi and I on
> June 2nd:
> 
> http://www.surrey.ca/culture-recreation/26219.aspx
> 
> Ben
> 
> _______________________________________________
> x mailing list
> x at vispo.com
> http://vispo.com/mailman/listinfo/x_vispo.com




From wynneapalmer at gmail.com  Mon Mar 19 16:34:24 2018
From: wynneapalmer at gmail.com (Wynne Palmer)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2018 14:34:24 -0700
Subject: [x] Watching and Dreaming | Capture Photography Festival
In-Reply-To: <98ac0ab4-668f-3f08-dff1-df80676b403b@ekran.org>
References: <98ac0ab4-668f-3f08-dff1-df80676b403b@ekran.org>
Message-ID: <CAPyih1mSJGUsbTsYJQT2azpr5niTYgrFEkLa-UDfr4tt2Hq+Cw@mail.gmail.com>

Congrats Ben, may be out of town for the opening but will make the talk!

Wynne


*Wynne Palmer*
*integrated media artist*

*independent curator :: producer :: mentor*

*email: wynneapalmer at gmail.com <wynneapalmer at gmail.com>*
*skype: Wynne Palmer*

*twitter: @WynnePalmer*


*website: http://www.wynnepalmer.net <http://www.wynnepalmer.net>linkedin:
http://www.linkedin.com/in/wynnepalmer
<http://www.linkedin.com/in/wynnepalmer>*
*facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WynnePalmer
<https://www.facebook.com/WynnePalmer>*

On Mon, Mar 19, 2018 at 11:20 AM, B. Bogart <ben at ekran.org> wrote:

> Hello All,
>
> I just wanted to share that I'll be having my first major exhibition in
> Vancouver next month:
>
> http://capturephotofest.com/exhibitions/watching-and-dreaming/
>
> I'll be showing three single channel AV works, Watching (Blade Runner,
> 2001: A Space Odyssey, and TRON), and three large scale light-boxes
> (thanks to the support of the BC Arts Council!) at the Surrey Art
> Gallery TechLab.
>
> There will also be a talk / discussion between Jim Bizzocchi and I on
> June 2nd:
>
> http://www.surrey.ca/culture-recreation/26219.aspx
>
> Ben
>
> _______________________________________________
> x mailing list
> x at vispo.com
> http://vispo.com/mailman/listinfo/x_vispo.com
>
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From miles.thorogood at gmail.com  Mon Mar 19 16:42:31 2018
From: miles.thorogood at gmail.com (Miles Thorogood)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2018 14:42:31 -0700
Subject: [x] Watching and Dreaming | Capture Photography Festival
In-Reply-To: <CAPyih1mSJGUsbTsYJQT2azpr5niTYgrFEkLa-UDfr4tt2Hq+Cw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <98ac0ab4-668f-3f08-dff1-df80676b403b@ekran.org>
	<CAPyih1mSJGUsbTsYJQT2azpr5niTYgrFEkLa-UDfr4tt2Hq+Cw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFyaV1OcJuzOYpaMMCCiKJMOOBJMPcdpupoffhRidv=LhT0UiQ@mail.gmail.com>

Congratulations on your success!

On Mon, Mar 19, 2018 at 2:34 PM, Wynne Palmer <wynneapalmer at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Congrats Ben, may be out of town for the opening but will make the talk!
>
> Wynne
>
>
> *Wynne Palmer*
> *integrated media artist*
>
> *independent curator :: producer :: mentor*
>
> *email: wynneapalmer at gmail.com <wynneapalmer at gmail.com>*
> *skype: Wynne Palmer*
>
> *twitter: @WynnePalmer*
>
>
> *website: http://www.wynnepalmer.net <http://www.wynnepalmer.net>linkedin:
> http://www.linkedin.com/in/wynnepalmer
> <http://www.linkedin.com/in/wynnepalmer>*
> *facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WynnePalmer
> <https://www.facebook.com/WynnePalmer>*
>
> On Mon, Mar 19, 2018 at 11:20 AM, B. Bogart <ben at ekran.org> wrote:
>
>> Hello All,
>>
>> I just wanted to share that I'll be having my first major exhibition in
>> Vancouver next month:
>>
>> http://capturephotofest.com/exhibitions/watching-and-dreaming/
>>
>> I'll be showing three single channel AV works, Watching (Blade Runner,
>> 2001: A Space Odyssey, and TRON), and three large scale light-boxes
>> (thanks to the support of the BC Arts Council!) at the Surrey Art
>> Gallery TechLab.
>>
>> There will also be a talk / discussion between Jim Bizzocchi and I on
>> June 2nd:
>>
>> http://www.surrey.ca/culture-recreation/26219.aspx
>>
>> Ben
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> x mailing list
>> x at vispo.com
>> http://vispo.com/mailman/listinfo/x_vispo.com
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> x mailing list
> x at vispo.com
> http://vispo.com/mailman/listinfo/x_vispo.com
>
>
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From fanjian08032544 at gmail.com  Mon Mar 19 20:13:09 2018
From: fanjian08032544 at gmail.com (Jianyu Fan)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2018 18:13:09 -0700
Subject: [x] Watching and Dreaming | Capture Photography Festival
In-Reply-To: <98ac0ab4-668f-3f08-dff1-df80676b403b@ekran.org>
References: <98ac0ab4-668f-3f08-dff1-df80676b403b@ekran.org>
Message-ID: <CAFw+Ch5PaUAD2kn11ZpbkEG6x5bPXQ7DJE5WQrE-kMuNbwhGXQ@mail.gmail.com>

Congrats Ben!

2018-03-19 11:20 GMT-07:00 B. Bogart <ben at ekran.org>:

> Hello All,
>
> I just wanted to share that I'll be having my first major exhibition in
> Vancouver next month:
>
> http://capturephotofest.com/exhibitions/watching-and-dreaming/
>
> I'll be showing three single channel AV works, Watching (Blade Runner,
> 2001: A Space Odyssey, and TRON), and three large scale light-boxes
> (thanks to the support of the BC Arts Council!) at the Surrey Art
> Gallery TechLab.
>
> There will also be a talk / discussion between Jim Bizzocchi and I on
> June 2nd:
>
> http://www.surrey.ca/culture-recreation/26219.aspx
>
> Ben
>
> _______________________________________________
> x mailing list
> x at vispo.com
> http://vispo.com/mailman/listinfo/x_vispo.com
>



-- 



Tel:    604-603-6082
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From coleslauralee at gmail.com  Mon Mar 19 22:19:19 2018
From: coleslauralee at gmail.com (Laura Lee Coles)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2018 20:19:19 -0700
Subject: [x] Watching and Dreaming | Capture Photography Festival
In-Reply-To: <CAFw+Ch5PaUAD2kn11ZpbkEG6x5bPXQ7DJE5WQrE-kMuNbwhGXQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <98ac0ab4-668f-3f08-dff1-df80676b403b@ekran.org>
	<CAFw+Ch5PaUAD2kn11ZpbkEG6x5bPXQ7DJE5WQrE-kMuNbwhGXQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <F176EB8A-83A4-4B01-A533-485CB5DDA143@gmail.com>



Sent from my iPhone

> On Mar 19, 2018, at 6:13 PM, Jianyu Fan <fanjian08032544 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Congrats Ben! 
> 
> 2018-03-19 11:20 GMT-07:00 B. Bogart <ben at ekran.org>:
>> Hello All,
>> 
>> I just wanted to share that I'll be having my first major exhibition in
>> Vancouver next month:
>> 
>> http://capturephotofest.com/exhibitions/watching-and-dreaming/
>> 
>> I'll be showing three single channel AV works, Watching (Blade Runner,
>> 2001: A Space Odyssey, and TRON), and three large scale light-boxes
>> (thanks to the support of the BC Arts Council!) at the Surrey Art
>> Gallery TechLab.
>> 
>> There will also be a talk / discussion between Jim Bizzocchi and I on
>> June 2nd:
>> 
>> http://www.surrey.ca/culture-recreation/26219.aspx
>> 
>> Ben
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> x mailing list
>> x at vispo.com
>> http://vispo.com/mailman/listinfo/x_vispo.com
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> 
> 
> 
> Tel:    604-603-6082
> _______________________________________________
> x mailing list
> x at vispo.com
> http://vispo.com/mailman/listinfo/x_vispo.com
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From judyc101 at gmail.com  Tue Mar 20 12:08:50 2018
From: judyc101 at gmail.com (judy jheung)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2018 10:08:50 -0700
Subject: [x] Watching and Dreaming | Capture Photography Festival
In-Reply-To: <F176EB8A-83A4-4B01-A533-485CB5DDA143@gmail.com>
References: <98ac0ab4-668f-3f08-dff1-df80676b403b@ekran.org>
	<CAFw+Ch5PaUAD2kn11ZpbkEG6x5bPXQ7DJE5WQrE-kMuNbwhGXQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<F176EB8A-83A4-4B01-A533-485CB5DDA143@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPmg52_go7gyDD3wbQVx4uU=GZ8=4Bf08SDiUZ_+CuEX2==WhA@mail.gmail.com>

Hey Congrat, Ben!
Love to see the work in person finally!!!! Hope there will be shuttle or
carpool anyone? I can't drive to SAG especially at night. I easily got lost.

jj

On Mon, Mar 19, 2018 at 8:19 PM, Laura Lee Coles <coleslauralee at gmail.com>
wrote:

>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Mar 19, 2018, at 6:13 PM, Jianyu Fan <fanjian08032544 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Congrats Ben!
>
> 2018-03-19 11:20 GMT-07:00 B. Bogart <ben at ekran.org>:
>
>> Hello All,
>>
>> I just wanted to share that I'll be having my first major exhibition in
>> Vancouver next month:
>>
>> http://capturephotofest.com/exhibitions/watching-and-dreaming/
>>
>> I'll be showing three single channel AV works, Watching (Blade Runner,
>> 2001: A Space Odyssey, and TRON), and three large scale light-boxes
>> (thanks to the support of the BC Arts Council!) at the Surrey Art
>> Gallery TechLab.
>>
>> There will also be a talk / discussion between Jim Bizzocchi and I on
>> June 2nd:
>>
>> http://www.surrey.ca/culture-recreation/26219.aspx
>>
>> Ben
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> x mailing list
>> x at vispo.com
>> http://vispo.com/mailman/listinfo/x_vispo.com
>>
>
>
>
> --
>
>
>
> Tel:    604-603-6082
>
> _______________________________________________
> x mailing list
> x at vispo.com
> http://vispo.com/mailman/listinfo/x_vispo.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> x mailing list
> x at vispo.com
> http://vispo.com/mailman/listinfo/x_vispo.com
>
>
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From jim at vispo.com  Thu Mar 29 13:24:41 2018
From: jim at vispo.com (Jim Andrews)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2018 11:24:41 -0700
Subject: [x] Checking In
Message-ID: <a5ef5a7f-71a1-60e3-2281-6add6b76ca94@vispo.com>

I'm unsure of the legality of a piece that I've created with the poet 
Adeena Karasick. I wonder if those in the know on legal use of images 
might tell me what you think.

The piece is at http://vispo.com/aleph3/an.html?d=Adeena%20Karasick%201

Best experienced on a desktop/laptop machine, though it runs OK on 
mobile devices. Click the aleph at top left to toggle display of the 
controls.

The text is Adeena's. She owns it for sure. No problem there. It's the 
text of her new book Checking In coming out soon from Talonbooks in 
Vancouver. And the programming is mine. The program the piece is in is 
one I wrote called Aleph Null 3.0.

The issue is the images in the background and the images used to fill 
the text.

Adeena selected 208 images from the net and from her own images for me 
to use in this piece. She didn't get them by license in google image 
search. She just picked the most relevant images for the text of the 
project.

She and a friend of hers think this is legal use of these images. I'm 
not so sure. What do you think?

I really like the piece itself. And Adeena's text is terrific. But I am 
quite unsure about the legalities of image use. And it isn't the 90's 
anymore. Things are changing. Google recently changed their image search 
so that you have to visit the site on which the image is located before 
you can save it. And of course there's the whole Facebook data issue. 
People are re-examining ownership of digitized/digital stuff.

ja




From miles.thorogood at gmail.com  Thu Mar 29 14:32:05 2018
From: miles.thorogood at gmail.com (Miles Thorogood)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2018 12:32:05 -0700
Subject: [x] Checking In
In-Reply-To: <a5ef5a7f-71a1-60e3-2281-6add6b76ca94@vispo.com>
References: <a5ef5a7f-71a1-60e3-2281-6add6b76ca94@vispo.com>
Message-ID: <CAFyaV1Mnwy6y3tq1uQBk70hdTO_vtkHTPRM9-G6edb=q-vccpg@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Jim,

I'm not a legal expert so don't consider this legal advice. At one point I
was asking a similar question regarding what my students are *allowed* to
do in terms of using digital assets in their work. The UBCO library gave us
some useful resources that I will share with you here. I'll skip the
content of public domain images and obtain permissions and jump straight to
piece on fair dealing and the remix exceptions.



*Fair dealing exception*
Fair dealing is a user right contained in the Copyright Act that allows you
to copy from a copyrighted work, without the copyright owner's permission,
if:
1. The copy is for the purposes of

   - Research
   - Private Study
   - Education
   - Criticism or Review
   - Parody or Satire
   - News reporting

2. The use is ?fair??
Dealing can be considered fair based on:





*Non-Commercial User-Generated Content Exception*


   - AKA the ?Mash-Up Exception?
   - Allows individuals to use a published work to create and communicate a
   new work, as long as:
   - the purpose is strictly non-commercial;
   - you use a legal copy of the original work;
   - you identify the author and source of the original work; and
   - the new work does not adversely impact the copyright owner of the
   original.


I hope some of this is useful for your cause.

Best,
Miles





On Thu, Mar 29, 2018 at 11:24 AM, Jim Andrews <jim at vispo.com> wrote:

> I'm unsure of the legality of a piece that I've created with the poet
> Adeena Karasick. I wonder if those in the know on legal use of images might
> tell me what you think.
>
> The piece is at http://vispo.com/aleph3/an.html?d=Adeena%20Karasick%201
>
> Best experienced on a desktop/laptop machine, though it runs OK on mobile
> devices. Click the aleph at top left to toggle display of the controls.
>
> The text is Adeena's. She owns it for sure. No problem there. It's the
> text of her new book Checking In coming out soon from Talonbooks in
> Vancouver. And the programming is mine. The program the piece is in is one
> I wrote called Aleph Null 3.0.
>
> The issue is the images in the background and the images used to fill the
> text.
>
> Adeena selected 208 images from the net and from her own images for me to
> use in this piece. She didn't get them by license in google image search.
> She just picked the most relevant images for the text of the project.
>
> She and a friend of hers think this is legal use of these images. I'm not
> so sure. What do you think?
>
> I really like the piece itself. And Adeena's text is terrific. But I am
> quite unsure about the legalities of image use. And it isn't the 90's
> anymore. Things are changing. Google recently changed their image search so
> that you have to visit the site on which the image is located before you
> can save it. And of course there's the whole Facebook data issue. People
> are re-examining ownership of digitized/digital stuff.
>
> ja
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> x mailing list
> x at vispo.com
> http://vispo.com/mailman/listinfo/x_vispo.com
>
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From jim at vispo.com  Thu Mar 29 14:50:39 2018
From: jim at vispo.com (Jim Andrews)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2018 12:50:39 -0700
Subject: [x] Checking In
In-Reply-To: <CAFyaV1Mnwy6y3tq1uQBk70hdTO_vtkHTPRM9-G6edb=q-vccpg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a5ef5a7f-71a1-60e3-2281-6add6b76ca94@vispo.com>
	<CAFyaV1Mnwy6y3tq1uQBk70hdTO_vtkHTPRM9-G6edb=q-vccpg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <43e18ed2-2440-eb16-38b0-e42362720c23@vispo.com>

Thanks, Miles. My reading of the below is that it implies
http://vispo.com/aleph3/an.html?d=Adeena%20Karasick%201
is OK as long as no money is involved and it doesn't go viral. As soon 
as it becomes popular or somebody wants to buy a copy of Aleph Null that 
contains Checking In, all bets are off.

ja


On 3/29/2018 12:32 PM, Miles Thorogood wrote:
> Hi Jim,
>
> I'm not a legal expert so don't consider this legal advice. At one 
> point I was asking a similar question regarding what my students are 
> *allowed* to do in terms of using digital assets in their work. The 
> UBCO library gave us some useful resources that I will share with you 
> here. I'll skip the content of public domain images and obtain 
> permissions and jump straight to piece on fair dealing and the remix 
> exceptions.
>
>
>
> *Fair dealing exception*
> Fair dealing is a user right contained in the Copyright Act that 
> allows you to copy from a copyrighted work, without the copyright 
> owner's permission, if:
> 1. The copy is for the purposes of
>
>   * Research
>   * Private Study
>   * Education
>   * Criticism or Review
>   * Parody or Satire
>   * News reporting
>
> 2. The use is ?fair??
> Dealing can be considered fair based on:
>
>
>
>
>
> *Non-Commercial User-Generated Content Exception*
>
>   * AKA the ?Mash-Up Exception?
>   * Allows individuals to use a published work to create and
>     communicate a new work, as long as:
>   * the purpose is strictly non-commercial;
>   * you use a legal copy of the original work;
>   * you identify the author and source of the original work; and
>   * the new work does not adversely impact the copyright owner of the
>     original.
>
>
> I hope some of this is useful for your cause.
>
> Best,
> Miles
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Mar 29, 2018 at 11:24 AM, Jim Andrews <jim at vispo.com 
> <mailto:jim at vispo.com>> wrote:
>
>     I'm unsure of the legality of a piece that I've created with the
>     poet Adeena Karasick. I wonder if those in the know on legal use
>     of images might tell me what you think.
>
>     The piece is at
>     http://vispo.com/aleph3/an.html?d=Adeena%20Karasick%201
>     <http://vispo.com/aleph3/an.html?d=Adeena%20Karasick%201>
>
>     Best experienced on a desktop/laptop machine, though it runs OK on
>     mobile devices. Click the aleph at top left to toggle display of
>     the controls.
>
>     The text is Adeena's. She owns it for sure. No problem there. It's
>     the text of her new book Checking In coming out soon from
>     Talonbooks in Vancouver. And the programming is mine. The program
>     the piece is in is one I wrote called Aleph Null 3.0.
>
>     The issue is the images in the background and the images used to
>     fill the text.
>
>     Adeena selected 208 images from the net and from her own images
>     for me to use in this piece. She didn't get them by license in
>     google image search. She just picked the most relevant images for
>     the text of the project.
>
>     She and a friend of hers think this is legal use of these images.
>     I'm not so sure. What do you think?
>
>     I really like the piece itself. And Adeena's text is terrific. But
>     I am quite unsure about the legalities of image use. And it isn't
>     the 90's anymore. Things are changing. Google recently changed
>     their image search so that you have to visit the site on which the
>     image is located before you can save it. And of course there's the
>     whole Facebook data issue. People are re-examining ownership of
>     digitized/digital stuff.
>
>     ja
>
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     x mailing list
>     x at vispo.com <mailto:x at vispo.com>
>     http://vispo.com/mailman/listinfo/x_vispo.com
>     <http://vispo.com/mailman/listinfo/x_vispo.com>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> x mailing list
> x at vispo.com
> http://vispo.com/mailman/listinfo/x_vispo.com

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From miles.thorogood at gmail.com  Thu Mar 29 14:58:23 2018
From: miles.thorogood at gmail.com (Miles Thorogood)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2018 19:58:23 +0000
Subject: [x] Checking In
In-Reply-To: <43e18ed2-2440-eb16-38b0-e42362720c23@vispo.com>
References: <a5ef5a7f-71a1-60e3-2281-6add6b76ca94@vispo.com>
	<CAFyaV1Mnwy6y3tq1uQBk70hdTO_vtkHTPRM9-G6edb=q-vccpg@mail.gmail.com>
	<43e18ed2-2440-eb16-38b0-e42362720c23@vispo.com>
Message-ID: <CAFyaV1PU6UJmZckA6w6dw6SywtVVrwYD3+spBp9oohs=K-hhYw@mail.gmail.com>

That sounds about the gist of it.

On Thu, Mar 29, 2018, 12:51 PM Jim Andrews <jim at vispo.com> wrote:

> Thanks, Miles. My reading of the below is that it implies
> http://vispo.com/aleph3/an.html?d=Adeena%20Karasick%201
> is OK as long as no money is involved and it doesn't go viral. As soon as
> it becomes popular or somebody wants to buy a copy of Aleph Null that
> contains Checking In, all bets are off.
>
> ja
>
> On 3/29/2018 12:32 PM, Miles Thorogood wrote:
>
> Hi Jim,
>
> I'm not a legal expert so don't consider this legal advice. At one point I
> was asking a similar question regarding what my students are *allowed* to
> do in terms of using digital assets in their work. The UBCO library gave us
> some useful resources that I will share with you here. I'll skip the
> content of public domain images and obtain permissions and jump straight to
> piece on fair dealing and the remix exceptions.
>
>
>
> *Fair dealing exception*
> Fair dealing is a user right contained in the Copyright Act that allows
> you to copy from a copyrighted work, without the copyright owner's
> permission, if:
> 1. The copy is for the purposes of
>
>    - Research
>    - Private Study
>    - Education
>    - Criticism or Review
>    - Parody or Satire
>    - News reporting
>
> 2. The use is ?fair??
> Dealing can be considered fair based on:
>
>
>
>
>
> *Non-Commercial User-Generated Content Exception*
>
>
>    - AKA the ?Mash-Up Exception?
>    - Allows individuals to use a published work to create and communicate
>    a new work, as long as:
>    - the purpose is strictly non-commercial;
>    - you use a legal copy of the original work;
>    - you identify the author and source of the original work; and
>    - the new work does not adversely impact the copyright owner of the
>    original.
>
>
> I hope some of this is useful for your cause.
>
> Best,
> Miles
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Mar 29, 2018 at 11:24 AM, Jim Andrews <jim at vispo.com> wrote:
>
>> I'm unsure of the legality of a piece that I've created with the poet
>> Adeena Karasick. I wonder if those in the know on legal use of images might
>> tell me what you think.
>>
>> The piece is at http://vispo.com/aleph3/an.html?d=Adeena%20Karasick%201
>>
>> Best experienced on a desktop/laptop machine, though it runs OK on mobile
>> devices. Click the aleph at top left to toggle display of the controls.
>>
>> The text is Adeena's. She owns it for sure. No problem there. It's the
>> text of her new book Checking In coming out soon from Talonbooks in
>> Vancouver. And the programming is mine. The program the piece is in is one
>> I wrote called Aleph Null 3.0.
>>
>> The issue is the images in the background and the images used to fill the
>> text.
>>
>> Adeena selected 208 images from the net and from her own images for me to
>> use in this piece. She didn't get them by license in google image search.
>> She just picked the most relevant images for the text of the project.
>>
>> She and a friend of hers think this is legal use of these images. I'm not
>> so sure. What do you think?
>>
>> I really like the piece itself. And Adeena's text is terrific. But I am
>> quite unsure about the legalities of image use. And it isn't the 90's
>> anymore. Things are changing. Google recently changed their image search so
>> that you have to visit the site on which the image is located before you
>> can save it. And of course there's the whole Facebook data issue. People
>> are re-examining ownership of digitized/digital stuff.
>>
>> ja
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> x mailing list
>> x at vispo.com
>> http://vispo.com/mailman/listinfo/x_vispo.com
>>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> x mailing listx at vispo.comhttp://vispo.com/mailman/listinfo/x_vispo.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> x mailing list
> x at vispo.com
> http://vispo.com/mailman/listinfo/x_vispo.com
>
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From jim at vispo.com  Thu Mar 29 15:02:02 2018
From: jim at vispo.com (Jim Andrews)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2018 13:02:02 -0700
Subject: [x] Checking In
In-Reply-To: <CAFyaV1PU6UJmZckA6w6dw6SywtVVrwYD3+spBp9oohs=K-hhYw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a5ef5a7f-71a1-60e3-2281-6add6b76ca94@vispo.com>
	<CAFyaV1Mnwy6y3tq1uQBk70hdTO_vtkHTPRM9-G6edb=q-vccpg@mail.gmail.com>
	<43e18ed2-2440-eb16-38b0-e42362720c23@vispo.com>
	<CAFyaV1PU6UJmZckA6w6dw6SywtVVrwYD3+spBp9oohs=K-hhYw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <51cf69ac-9c14-4caa-fcbf-c7952a3b121e@vispo.com>

Right. So it's OK as long as it's completely inconsequential.

ja


On 3/29/2018 12:58 PM, Miles Thorogood wrote:
> That sounds about the gist of it.
>
> On Thu, Mar 29, 2018, 12:51 PM Jim Andrews <jim at vispo.com 
> <mailto:jim at vispo.com>> wrote:
>
>     Thanks, Miles. My reading of the below is that it implies
>     http://vispo.com/aleph3/an.html?d=Adeena%20Karasick%201
>     is OK as long as no money is involved and it doesn't go viral. As
>     soon as it becomes popular or somebody wants to buy a copy of
>     Aleph Null that contains Checking In, all bets are off.
>
>     ja
>
>
>     On 3/29/2018 12:32 PM, Miles Thorogood wrote:
>>     Hi Jim,
>>
>>     I'm not a legal expert so don't consider this legal advice. At
>>     one point I was asking a similar question regarding what my
>>     students are *allowed* to do in terms of using digital assets in
>>     their work. The UBCO library gave us some useful resources that I
>>     will share with you here. I'll skip the content of public domain
>>     images and obtain permissions and jump straight to piece on fair
>>     dealing and the remix exceptions.
>>
>>
>>
>>     *Fair dealing exception*
>>     Fair dealing is a user right contained in the Copyright Act that
>>     allows you to copy from a copyrighted work, without the copyright
>>     owner's permission, if:
>>     1. The copy is for the purposes of
>>
>>       * Research
>>       * Private Study
>>       * Education
>>       * Criticism or Review
>>       * Parody or Satire
>>       * News reporting
>>
>>     2. The use is ?fair??
>>     Dealing can be considered fair based on:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>     *Non-Commercial User-Generated Content Exception*
>>
>>       * AKA the ?Mash-Up Exception?
>>       * Allows individuals to use a published work to create and
>>         communicate a new work, as long as:
>>       * the purpose is strictly non-commercial;
>>       * you use a legal copy of the original work;
>>       * you identify the author and source of the original work; and
>>       * the new work does not adversely impact the copyright owner of
>>         the original.
>>
>>
>>     I hope some of this is useful for your cause.
>>
>>     Best,
>>     Miles
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>     On Thu, Mar 29, 2018 at 11:24 AM, Jim Andrews <jim at vispo.com
>>     <mailto:jim at vispo.com>> wrote:
>>
>>         I'm unsure of the legality of a piece that I've created with
>>         the poet Adeena Karasick. I wonder if those in the know on
>>         legal use of images might tell me what you think.
>>
>>         The piece is at
>>         http://vispo.com/aleph3/an.html?d=Adeena%20Karasick%201
>>
>>         Best experienced on a desktop/laptop machine, though it runs
>>         OK on mobile devices. Click the aleph at top left to toggle
>>         display of the controls.
>>
>>         The text is Adeena's. She owns it for sure. No problem there.
>>         It's the text of her new book Checking In coming out soon
>>         from Talonbooks in Vancouver. And the programming is mine.
>>         The program the piece is in is one I wrote called Aleph Null 3.0.
>>
>>         The issue is the images in the background and the images used
>>         to fill the text.
>>
>>         Adeena selected 208 images from the net and from her own
>>         images for me to use in this piece. She didn't get them by
>>         license in google image search. She just picked the most
>>         relevant images for the text of the project.
>>
>>         She and a friend of hers think this is legal use of these
>>         images. I'm not so sure. What do you think?
>>
>>         I really like the piece itself. And Adeena's text is
>>         terrific. But I am quite unsure about the legalities of image
>>         use. And it isn't the 90's anymore. Things are changing.
>>         Google recently changed their image search so that you have
>>         to visit the site on which the image is located before you
>>         can save it. And of course there's the whole Facebook data
>>         issue. People are re-examining ownership of digitized/digital
>>         stuff.
>>
>>         ja
>>
>>
>>         _______________________________________________
>>         x mailing list
>>         x at vispo.com <mailto:x at vispo.com>
>>         http://vispo.com/mailman/listinfo/x_vispo.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>     _______________________________________________
>>     x mailing list
>>     x at vispo.com <mailto:x at vispo.com>
>>     http://vispo.com/mailman/listinfo/x_vispo.com
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     x mailing list
>     x at vispo.com <mailto:x at vispo.com>
>     http://vispo.com/mailman/listinfo/x_vispo.com
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> x mailing list
> x at vispo.com
> http://vispo.com/mailman/listinfo/x_vispo.com

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From deanne at diamedia.net  Thu Mar 29 15:19:55 2018
From: deanne at diamedia.net (Deanne Achong | Dia Media)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2018 13:19:55 -0700
Subject: [x] Checking In
In-Reply-To: <51cf69ac-9c14-4caa-fcbf-c7952a3b121e@vispo.com>
References: <a5ef5a7f-71a1-60e3-2281-6add6b76ca94@vispo.com>
	<CAFyaV1Mnwy6y3tq1uQBk70hdTO_vtkHTPRM9-G6edb=q-vccpg@mail.gmail.com>
	<43e18ed2-2440-eb16-38b0-e42362720c23@vispo.com>
	<CAFyaV1PU6UJmZckA6w6dw6SywtVVrwYD3+spBp9oohs=K-hhYw@mail.gmail.com>
	<51cf69ac-9c14-4caa-fcbf-c7952a3b121e@vispo.com>
Message-ID: <D6B1006F-B484-4783-B498-12DDC90EB336@diamedia.net>

Hi Jim,

Great question.
Miles has covered the ?legalese? angle very well:)

I?ve used a lot of ?found images? - in general I stay within stuff that is at least 50 years old, which doesn?t always cover copyright (thanks to that pesky Mickey Mouse) but if I found it via archive.org <http://archive.org/> for example, it usually does:)

My 2 cents would be this: 

1. Richard Prince did that piece where he used Instagram images and then sold them for a pretty penny. This is totally kosher and almost normal for his practice and all those other academic arguments . I think in general the non-art public was quite insulted and hurt. (which is a funny word to use, but people feel attached to their images, whether or not they ?should?.) Also yup, maybe it was just a strategy to re-raise his profile.

2. When I used to teach, I would ask students, how would you feel if someone took your artwork and used it as you are planning to do? If the answer if ?outraged? or any variation thereof, then the answer about using it clear. At least from an ethical perspective.

3. Whoops that?s 3 cents:) - anything on the internet appears in a database that is probably up for grabs. I?ve seem some of my photographs used to sell things on Craigslist. Slightly amusing, minor ruffling of feathers, and a general shrugging of my shoulders. 


Cheers,
Deanne


Deanne Achong 
GoodyBank
Digital Strategy + Design Studio
https://goodybank.com
604-708-4185

+> https://www.deanneachong.com <https://www.deanneachong.com/> - ART
++>> https://www.instagram.com/piquette/ <https://www.instagram.com/piquette/>

> On Mar 29, 2018, at 1:02 PM, Jim Andrews <jim at vispo.com> wrote:
> 
> Right. So it's OK as long as it's completely inconsequential.
> 
> ja
> 
> On 3/29/2018 12:58 PM, Miles Thorogood wrote:
>> That sounds about the gist of it.
>> 
>> On Thu, Mar 29, 2018, 12:51 PM Jim Andrews <jim at vispo.com <mailto:jim at vispo.com>> wrote:
>> Thanks, Miles. My reading of the below is that it implies 
>> http://vispo.com/aleph3/an.html?d=Adeena%20Karasick%201 <http://vispo.com/aleph3/an.html?d=Adeena%20Karasick%201>
>> is OK as long as no money is involved and it doesn't go viral. As soon as it becomes popular or somebody wants to buy a copy of Aleph Null that contains Checking In, all bets are off.
>> 
>> ja
>> 
>> On 3/29/2018 12:32 PM, Miles Thorogood wrote:
>>> Hi Jim,
>>> 
>>> I'm not a legal expert so don't consider this legal advice. At one point I was asking a similar question regarding what my students are allowed to do in terms of using digital assets in their work. The UBCO library gave us some useful resources that I will share with you here. I'll skip the content of public domain images and obtain permissions and jump straight to piece on fair dealing and the remix exceptions.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Fair dealing exception
>>> Fair dealing is a user right contained in the Copyright Act that allows you to copy from a copyrighted work, without the copyright owner's permission, if:
>>> 1. The copy is for the purposes of
>>> Research
>>> Private Study
>>> Education
>>> Criticism or Review
>>> Parody or Satire
>>> News reporting
>>> 2. The use is ?fair??
>>> Dealing can be considered fair based on:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Non-Commercial User-Generated Content Exception
>>> 
>>> AKA the ?Mash-Up Exception?
>>> Allows individuals to use a published work to create and communicate a new work, as long as:
>>> the purpose is strictly non-commercial;
>>> you use a legal copy of the original work;
>>> you identify the author and source of the original work; and
>>> the new work does not adversely impact the copyright owner of the original.
>>> 
>>> I hope some of this is useful for your cause.
>>> 
>>> Best,
>>> Miles
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Thu, Mar 29, 2018 at 11:24 AM, Jim Andrews <jim at vispo.com <mailto:jim at vispo.com>> wrote:
>>> I'm unsure of the legality of a piece that I've created with the poet Adeena Karasick. I wonder if those in the know on legal use of images might tell me what you think.
>>> 
>>> The piece is at http://vispo.com/aleph3/an.html?d=Adeena%20Karasick%201 <http://vispo.com/aleph3/an.html?d=Adeena%20Karasick%201>
>>> 
>>> Best experienced on a desktop/laptop machine, though it runs OK on mobile devices. Click the aleph at top left to toggle display of the controls.
>>> 
>>> The text is Adeena's. She owns it for sure. No problem there. It's the text of her new book Checking In coming out soon from Talonbooks in Vancouver. And the programming is mine. The program the piece is in is one I wrote called Aleph Null 3.0.
>>> 
>>> The issue is the images in the background and the images used to fill the text.
>>> 
>>> Adeena selected 208 images from the net and from her own images for me to use in this piece. She didn't get them by license in google image search. She just picked the most relevant images for the text of the project.
>>> 
>>> She and a friend of hers think this is legal use of these images. I'm not so sure. What do you think?
>>> 
>>> I really like the piece itself. And Adeena's text is terrific. But I am quite unsure about the legalities of image use. And it isn't the 90's anymore. Things are changing. Google recently changed their image search so that you have to visit the site on which the image is located before you can save it. And of course there's the whole Facebook data issue. People are re-examining ownership of digitized/digital stuff.
>>> 
>>> ja
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> x mailing list
>>> x at vispo.com <mailto:x at vispo.com>
>>> http://vispo.com/mailman/listinfo/x_vispo.com <http://vispo.com/mailman/listinfo/x_vispo.com>
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> x mailing list
>>> x at vispo.com <mailto:x at vispo.com>
>>> http://vispo.com/mailman/listinfo/x_vispo.com <http://vispo.com/mailman/listinfo/x_vispo.com>
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> x mailing list
>> x at vispo.com <mailto:x at vispo.com>
>> http://vispo.com/mailman/listinfo/x_vispo.com <http://vispo.com/mailman/listinfo/x_vispo.com>
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> x mailing list
>> x at vispo.com <mailto:x at vispo.com>
>> http://vispo.com/mailman/listinfo/x_vispo.com <http://vispo.com/mailman/listinfo/x_vispo.com>
> 
> _______________________________________________
> x mailing list
> x at vispo.com
> http://vispo.com/mailman/listinfo/x_vispo.com



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From rob at robmyers.org  Thu Mar 29 15:30:36 2018
From: rob at robmyers.org (Rob Myers)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2018 13:30:36 -0700
Subject: [x] Checking In
In-Reply-To: <51cf69ac-9c14-4caa-fcbf-c7952a3b121e@vispo.com>
References: <a5ef5a7f-71a1-60e3-2281-6add6b76ca94@vispo.com>
	<CAFyaV1Mnwy6y3tq1uQBk70hdTO_vtkHTPRM9-G6edb=q-vccpg@mail.gmail.com>
	<43e18ed2-2440-eb16-38b0-e42362720c23@vispo.com>
	<CAFyaV1PU6UJmZckA6w6dw6SywtVVrwYD3+spBp9oohs=K-hhYw@mail.gmail.com>
	<51cf69ac-9c14-4caa-fcbf-c7952a3b121e@vispo.com>
Message-ID: <1522355436.2451010.1320731080.251F3D3D@webmail.messagingengine.com>

(I am not a lawyer, this is not legal advice.)

I'd be slightly wary of any implications of providing the materials to
the user for them to make that content, rather than just making the
content yourself.
- Rob.

On Thu, 29 Mar 2018, at 1:02 PM, Jim Andrews wrote:
> Right. So it's OK as long as it's completely inconsequential.


> ja


> 
> On 3/29/2018 12:58 PM, Miles Thorogood wrote:
>> That sounds about the gist of it.
>> 
>> On Thu, Mar 29, 2018, 12:51 PM Jim Andrews <jim at vispo.com> wrote:
>>> Thanks, Miles. My reading of the below is that it implies 
>>> http://vispo.com/aleph3/an.html?d=Adeena%20Karasick%201
>>>  is OK as long as no money is involved and it doesn't go viral. As
>>>  soon as it becomes popular or somebody wants to buy a copy of Aleph
>>>  Null that contains Checking In, all bets are off.>>> ja


>>> 
>>> On 3/29/2018 12:32 PM, Miles Thorogood wrote:
>>>> Hi Jim,
>>>> 
>>>> I'm not a legal expert so don't consider this legal advice. At one
>>>> point I was asking a similar question regarding what my students
>>>> are*allowed* to do in terms of using digital assets in their work.
>>>> The UBCO library gave us some useful resources that I will share
>>>> with you here. I'll skip the content of public domain images and
>>>> obtain permissions and jump straight to piece on fair dealing and
>>>> the remix exceptions.>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> *Fair dealing exception*
>>>>  Fair dealing is a user right contained in the Copyright Act that
>>>>  allows you to copy from a copyrighted work, without the copyright
>>>>  owner's permission, if:>>>>  1. The copy is for the purposes of
>>>>
>>>>  * Research
>>>>  * Private Study
>>>>  * Education
>>>>  * Criticism or Review
>>>>  * Parody or Satire
>>>>  * News reporting>>>> 2. The use is ?fair??
>>>>  Dealing can be considered fair based on:
>>>>  
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> *Non-Commercial User-Generated Content Exception*
>>>> 
>>>>
>>>>  * AKA the ?Mash-Up Exception?
>>>>  * Allows individuals to use a published work to create and
>>>>    communicate a new work, as long as:
>>>>  * the purpose is strictly non-commercial;
>>>>  * you use a legal copy of the original work;
>>>>  * you identify the author and source of the original work; and
>>>>  * the new work does not adversely impact the copyright owner of
>>>>    the original.>>>> 
>>>> I hope some of this is useful for your cause.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Best,
>>>> 
>>>> Miles
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On Thu, Mar 29, 2018 at 11:24 AM, Jim Andrews <jim at vispo.com>
>>>> wrote:>>>> 
>>>>> I'm unsure of the legality of a piece that I've created with the
>>>>> poet Adeena Karasick. I wonder if those in the know on legal use
>>>>> of images might tell me what you think.>>>>> 
>>>>>  The piece is at
>>>>>  http://vispo.com/aleph3/an.html?d=Adeena%20Karasick%201>>>>> 
>>>>>  Best experienced on a desktop/laptop machine, though it runs OK
>>>>>  on mobile devices. Click the aleph at top left to toggle display
>>>>>  of the controls.>>>>> 
>>>>>  The text is Adeena's. She owns it for sure. No problem there.
>>>>>  It's the text of her new book Checking In coming out soon from
>>>>>  Talonbooks in Vancouver. And the programming is mine. The program
>>>>>  the piece is in is one I wrote called Aleph Null 3.0.>>>>> 
>>>>>  The issue is the images in the background and the images used to
>>>>>  fill the text.>>>>> 
>>>>>  Adeena selected 208 images from the net and from her own images
>>>>>  for me to use in this piece. She didn't get them by license in
>>>>>  google image search. She just picked the most relevant images for
>>>>>  the text of the project.>>>>> 
>>>>>  She and a friend of hers think this is legal use of these images.
>>>>>  I'm not so sure. What do you think?>>>>> 
>>>>>  I really like the piece itself. And Adeena's text is terrific.
>>>>>  But I am quite unsure about the legalities of image use. And it
>>>>>  isn't the 90's anymore. Things are changing. Google recently
>>>>>  changed their image search so that you have to visit the site on
>>>>>  which the image is located before you can save it. And of course
>>>>>  there's the whole Facebook data issue. People are re-examining
>>>>>  ownership of digitized/digital stuff.>>>>> 
>>>>>  ja
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>  _______________________________________________
>>>>>  x mailing list
>>>>> x at vispo.com
>>>>> http://vispo.com/mailman/listinfo/x_vispo.com
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________ x mailing list
>>>> x at vispo.com http://vispo.com/mailman/listinfo/x_vispo.com
>>>>>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>  x mailing list
>>> x at vispo.com
>>> http://vispo.com/mailman/listinfo/x_vispo.com
>> 
>>
>> _______________________________________________ x mailing list
>> x at vispo.com http://vispo.com/mailman/listinfo/x_vispo.com
>>> 
> _________________________________________________
> x mailing list
> x at vispo.com
> http://vispo.com/mailman/listinfo/x_vispo.com

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From jim at vispo.com  Thu Mar 29 15:34:36 2018
From: jim at vispo.com (Jim Andrews)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2018 13:34:36 -0700
Subject: [x] Checking In
In-Reply-To: <1522355436.2451010.1320731080.251F3D3D@webmail.messagingengine.com>
References: <a5ef5a7f-71a1-60e3-2281-6add6b76ca94@vispo.com>
	<CAFyaV1Mnwy6y3tq1uQBk70hdTO_vtkHTPRM9-G6edb=q-vccpg@mail.gmail.com>
	<43e18ed2-2440-eb16-38b0-e42362720c23@vispo.com>
	<CAFyaV1PU6UJmZckA6w6dw6SywtVVrwYD3+spBp9oohs=K-hhYw@mail.gmail.com>
	<51cf69ac-9c14-4caa-fcbf-c7952a3b121e@vispo.com>
	<1522355436.2451010.1320731080.251F3D3D@webmail.messagingengine.com>
Message-ID: <99ee4f44-189e-2aca-6182-7c3265e171c6@vispo.com>

Yes. Aleph Null lets people mix many things together, use their own 
images, and save screenshots.

ja


On 3/29/2018 1:30 PM, Rob Myers wrote:
> (I am not a lawyer, this is not legal advice.)
>
> I'd be slightly wary of any implications of providing the materials to 
> the user for them to make that content, rather than just making the 
> content yourself.
>
> - Rob.
>
> On Thu, 29 Mar 2018, at 1:02 PM, Jim Andrews wrote:
>>
>> Right. So it's OK as long as it's completely inconsequential.
>>
>> ja
>>
>>
>> On 3/29/2018 12:58 PM, Miles Thorogood wrote:
>>> That sounds about the gist of it.
>>>
>>> On Thu, Mar 29, 2018, 12:51 PM Jim Andrews <jim at vispo.com 
>>> <mailto:jim at vispo.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>>     Thanks, Miles. My reading of the below is that it implies
>>>     http://vispo.com/aleph3/an.html?d=Adeena%20Karasick%201
>>>     is OK as long as no money is involved and it doesn't go viral.
>>>     As soon as it becomes popular or somebody wants to buy a copy of
>>>     Aleph Null that contains Checking In, all bets are off.
>>>
>>>     ja
>>>
>>>
>>>     On 3/29/2018 12:32 PM, Miles Thorogood wrote:
>>>>     Hi Jim,
>>>>
>>>>     I'm not a legal expert so don't consider this legal advice. At
>>>>     one point I was asking a similar question regarding what my
>>>>     students are*allowed* to do in terms of using digital assets in
>>>>     their work. The UBCO library gave us some useful resources that
>>>>     I will share with you here. I'll skip the content of public
>>>>     domain images and obtain permissions and jump straight to piece
>>>>     on fair dealing and the remix exceptions.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>     *Fair dealing exception*
>>>>     Fair dealing is a user right contained in the Copyright Act
>>>>     that allows you to copy from a copyrighted work, without the
>>>>     copyright owner's permission, if:
>>>>     1. The copy is for the purposes of
>>>>
>>>>       * Research
>>>>       * Private Study
>>>>       * Education
>>>>       * Criticism or Review
>>>>       * Parody or Satire
>>>>       * News reporting
>>>>
>>>>     2. The use is ?fair??
>>>>     Dealing can be considered fair based on:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>     *Non-Commercial User-Generated Content Exception*
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>       * AKA the ?Mash-Up Exception?
>>>>       * Allows individuals to use a published work to create and
>>>>         communicate a new work, as long as:
>>>>       * the purpose is strictly non-commercial;
>>>>       * you use a legal copy of the original work;
>>>>       * you identify the author and source of the original work; and
>>>>       * the new work does not adversely impact the copyright owner
>>>>         of the original.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>     I hope some of this is useful for your cause.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>     Best,
>>>>
>>>>     Miles
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>     On Thu, Mar 29, 2018 at 11:24 AM, Jim Andrews <jim at vispo.com
>>>>     <mailto:jim at vispo.com>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>         I'm unsure of the legality of a piece that I've created
>>>>         with the poet Adeena Karasick. I wonder if those in the
>>>>         know on legal use of images might tell me what you think.
>>>>
>>>>         The piece is at
>>>>         http://vispo.com/aleph3/an.html?d=Adeena%20Karasick%201
>>>>
>>>>         Best experienced on a desktop/laptop machine, though it
>>>>         runs OK on mobile devices. Click the aleph at top left to
>>>>         toggle display of the controls.
>>>>
>>>>         The text is Adeena's. She owns it for sure. No problem
>>>>         there. It's the text of her new book Checking In coming out
>>>>         soon from Talonbooks in Vancouver. And the programming is
>>>>         mine. The program the piece is in is one I wrote called
>>>>         Aleph Null 3.0.
>>>>
>>>>         The issue is the images in the background and the images
>>>>         used to fill the text.
>>>>
>>>>         Adeena selected 208 images from the net and from her own
>>>>         images for me to use in this piece. She didn't get them by
>>>>         license in google image search. She just picked the most
>>>>         relevant images for the text of the project.
>>>>
>>>>         She and a friend of hers think this is legal use of these
>>>>         images. I'm not so sure. What do you think?
>>>>
>>>>         I really like the piece itself. And Adeena's text is
>>>>         terrific. But I am quite unsure about the legalities of
>>>>         image use. And it isn't the 90's anymore. Things are
>>>>         changing. Google recently changed their image search so
>>>>         that you have to visit the site on which the image is
>>>>         located before you can save it. And of course there's the
>>>>         whole Facebook data issue. People are re-examining
>>>>         ownership of digitized/digital stuff.
>>>>
>>>>         ja
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>         _______________________________________________
>>>>         x mailing list
>>>>         x at vispo.com <mailto:x at vispo.com>
>>>>         http://vispo.com/mailman/listinfo/x_vispo.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>     _______________________________________________
>>>>     x mailing list
>>>>     x at vispo.com <mailto:x at vispo.com>
>>>>     http://vispo.com/mailman/listinfo/x_vispo.com
>>>>
>>>
>>>     _______________________________________________
>>>     x mailing list
>>>     x at vispo.com <mailto:x at vispo.com>
>>>     http://vispo.com/mailman/listinfo/x_vispo.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> x mailing list
>>> x at vispo.com <mailto:x at vispo.com>
>>> http://vispo.com/mailman/listinfo/x_vispo.com
>>>
>>
>> _________________________________________________
>> x mailing list
>> x at vispo.com <mailto:x at vispo.com>
>> http://vispo.com/mailman/listinfo/x_vispo.com
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> x mailing list
> x at vispo.com
> http://vispo.com/mailman/listinfo/x_vispo.com

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From jim at vispo.com  Thu Mar 29 15:40:10 2018
From: jim at vispo.com (Jim Andrews)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2018 13:40:10 -0700
Subject: [x] Checking In
In-Reply-To: <D6B1006F-B484-4783-B498-12DDC90EB336@diamedia.net>
References: <a5ef5a7f-71a1-60e3-2281-6add6b76ca94@vispo.com>
	<CAFyaV1Mnwy6y3tq1uQBk70hdTO_vtkHTPRM9-G6edb=q-vccpg@mail.gmail.com>
	<43e18ed2-2440-eb16-38b0-e42362720c23@vispo.com>
	<CAFyaV1PU6UJmZckA6w6dw6SywtVVrwYD3+spBp9oohs=K-hhYw@mail.gmail.com>
	<51cf69ac-9c14-4caa-fcbf-c7952a3b121e@vispo.com>
	<D6B1006F-B484-4783-B498-12DDC90EB336@diamedia.net>
Message-ID: <721b9351-aac3-91c6-726a-f7eda8b551c8@vispo.com>

Hi Deanne,

Adeena's friend Bob Kasher cited the Richard Prince case
( 
https://www.artinamericamagazine.com/news-features/news/richard-prince-wins-major-victory-in-landmark-copyright-suit/ 
)
in his claim that "you have no copyright concerns (see above link). 
Prince vs. Rastafarian set the copyright precedent here for all imagery 
use. As long as you are distorting, collaging it etc. you own it. It 
doesn't matter where it came from."

If somebody used my work in the way I've used this work, I'd be OK with 
it as long as they didn't make a significant sum from it. If they did 
that, I'd want some recompense.

So I'm still pretty confused about the legality.

ja


On 3/29/2018 1:19 PM, Deanne Achong | Dia Media wrote:
> Hi Jim,
>
> Great question.
> Miles has covered the ?legalese? angle very well:)
>
> I?ve used a lot of ?found images? - in general I stay within stuff 
> that is at least 50 years old, which doesn?t always cover copyright 
> (thanks to that pesky Mickey Mouse) but if I found it via archive.org 
> <http://archive.org>?for example, it usually does:)
>
> My 2 cents would be this:
>
> 1. Richard Prince did that piece where he used Instagram images and 
> then sold them for a pretty penny. This is totally kosher and almost 
> normal for his practice and all those other academic arguments . I 
> think in general the non-art public was quite insulted and hurt. 
> (which is a funny word to use, but people feel attached to their 
> images, whether or not they ?should?.) Also yup, maybe it was just a 
> strategy to re-raise his profile.
>
> 2. When I used to teach, I would ask students, how would you feel if 
> someone took your artwork and used it as you are planning to do? If 
> the answer if ?outraged? or any variation thereof, then the answer 
> about using it clear. At least from an ethical perspective.
>
> 3. Whoops that?s 3 cents:) - anything on the internet appears in a 
> database that is probably up for grabs. I?ve seem some of my 
> photographs used to sell things on Craigslist. Slightly amusing, minor 
> ruffling of feathers, and a general shrugging of my shoulders.
>
>
> Cheers,
> Deanne
>
>
> Deanne Achong
> GoodyBank
> Digital Strategy + Design Studio
> https://goodybank.com
> 604-708-4185
>
> +> https://www.deanneachong.com?- ART
> ++>> https://www.instagram.com/piquette/
>
>> On Mar 29, 2018, at 1:02 PM, Jim Andrews <jim at vispo.com 
>> <mailto:jim at vispo.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Right. So it's OK as long as it's completely inconsequential.
>>
>> ja
>>
>>
>> On 3/29/2018 12:58 PM, Miles Thorogood wrote:
>>> That sounds about the gist of it.
>>>
>>> On Thu, Mar 29, 2018, 12:51 PM Jim Andrews <jim at vispo.com 
>>> <mailto:jim at vispo.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>>     Thanks, Miles. My reading of the below is that it implies
>>>     http://vispo.com/aleph3/an.html?d=Adeena%20Karasick%201
>>>     is OK as long as no money is involved and it doesn't go viral.
>>>     As soon as it becomes popular or somebody wants to buy a copy of
>>>     Aleph Null that contains Checking In, all bets are off.
>>>
>>>     ja
>>>
>>>
>>>     On 3/29/2018 12:32 PM, Miles Thorogood wrote:
>>>>     Hi Jim,
>>>>
>>>>     I'm not a legal expert so don't consider this legal advice. At
>>>>     one point I was asking a similar question regarding what my
>>>>     students are *allowed* to do in terms of using digital assets
>>>>     in their work. The UBCO library gave us some useful resources
>>>>     that I will share with you here. I'll skip the content of
>>>>     public domain images and obtain permissions and jump straight
>>>>     to piece on fair dealing and the remix exceptions.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>     *Fair dealing exception*
>>>>     Fair dealing is a user right contained in the Copyright Act
>>>>     that allows you to copy from a copyrighted work, without the
>>>>     copyright owner's permission, if:
>>>>     1. The copy is for the purposes of
>>>>
>>>>       * Research
>>>>       * Private Study
>>>>       * Education
>>>>       * Criticism or Review
>>>>       * Parody or Satire
>>>>       * News reporting
>>>>
>>>>     2. The use is ?fair??
>>>>     Dealing can be considered fair based on:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>     *Non-Commercial User-Generated Content Exception*
>>>>
>>>>       * AKA the ?Mash-Up Exception?
>>>>       * Allows individuals to use a published work to create and
>>>>         communicate a new work, as long as:
>>>>       * the purpose is strictly non-commercial;
>>>>       * you use a legal copy of the original work;
>>>>       * you identify the author and source of the original work; and
>>>>       * the new work does not adversely impact the copyright owner
>>>>         of the original.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>     I hope some of this is useful for your cause.
>>>>
>>>>     Best,
>>>>     Miles
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>     On Thu, Mar 29, 2018 at 11:24 AM, Jim Andrews <jim at vispo.com
>>>>     <mailto:jim at vispo.com>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>         I'm unsure of the legality of a piece that I've created
>>>>         with the poet Adeena Karasick. I wonder if those in the
>>>>         know on legal use of images might tell me what you think.
>>>>
>>>>         The piece is at
>>>>         http://vispo.com/aleph3/an.html?d=Adeena%20Karasick%201
>>>>
>>>>         Best experienced on a desktop/laptop machine, though it
>>>>         runs OK on mobile devices. Click the aleph at top left to
>>>>         toggle display of the controls.
>>>>
>>>>         The text is Adeena's. She owns it for sure. No problem
>>>>         there. It's the text of her new book Checking In coming out
>>>>         soon from Talonbooks in Vancouver. And the programming is
>>>>         mine. The program the piece is in is one I wrote called
>>>>         Aleph Null 3.0.
>>>>
>>>>         The issue is the images in the background and the images
>>>>         used to fill the text.
>>>>
>>>>         Adeena selected 208 images from the net and from her own
>>>>         images for me to use in this piece. She didn't get them by
>>>>         license in google image search. She just picked the most
>>>>         relevant images for the text of the project.
>>>>
>>>>         She and a friend of hers think this is legal use of these
>>>>         images. I'm not so sure. What do you think?
>>>>
>>>>         I really like the piece itself. And Adeena's text is
>>>>         terrific. But I am quite unsure about the legalities of
>>>>         image use. And it isn't the 90's anymore. Things are
>>>>         changing. Google recently changed their image search so
>>>>         that you have to visit the site on which the image is
>>>>         located before you can save it. And of course there's the
>>>>         whole Facebook data issue. People are re-examining
>>>>         ownership of digitized/digital stuff.
>>>>
>>>>         ja
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>         _______________________________________________
>>>>         x mailing list
>>>>         x at vispo.com <mailto:x at vispo.com>
>>>>         http://vispo.com/mailman/listinfo/x_vispo.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>     _______________________________________________
>>>>     x mailing list
>>>>     x at vispo.com <mailto:x at vispo.com>
>>>>     http://vispo.com/mailman/listinfo/x_vispo.com
>>>
>>>     _______________________________________________
>>>     x mailing list
>>>     x at vispo.com <mailto:x at vispo.com>
>>>     http://vispo.com/mailman/listinfo/x_vispo.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> x mailing list
>>> x at vispo.com
>>> http://vispo.com/mailman/listinfo/x_vispo.com
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> x mailing list
>> x at vispo.com <mailto:x at vispo.com>
>> http://vispo.com/mailman/listinfo/x_vispo.com
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> x mailing list
> x at vispo.com
> http://vispo.com/mailman/listinfo/x_vispo.com

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From rob at robmyers.org  Thu Mar 29 16:07:17 2018
From: rob at robmyers.org (Rob Myers)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2018 14:07:17 -0700
Subject: [x] Checking In
In-Reply-To: <721b9351-aac3-91c6-726a-f7eda8b551c8@vispo.com>
References: <a5ef5a7f-71a1-60e3-2281-6add6b76ca94@vispo.com>
	<CAFyaV1Mnwy6y3tq1uQBk70hdTO_vtkHTPRM9-G6edb=q-vccpg@mail.gmail.com>
	<43e18ed2-2440-eb16-38b0-e42362720c23@vispo.com>
	<CAFyaV1PU6UJmZckA6w6dw6SywtVVrwYD3+spBp9oohs=K-hhYw@mail.gmail.com>
	<51cf69ac-9c14-4caa-fcbf-c7952a3b121e@vispo.com>
	<D6B1006F-B484-4783-B498-12DDC90EB336@diamedia.net>
	<721b9351-aac3-91c6-726a-f7eda8b551c8@vispo.com>
Message-ID: <1522357637.2468673.1320761336.345D249D@webmail.messagingengine.com>

The Prince case was fascinating but it was in the US, so it doesn't set
a precedent for Canada.
There are two problems you'll encounter researching this area.

1. Most resources are for the US, and so cover Fair Use rather than Fair
   Dealing, and concentrate on US legal precedents.
2. Most resources that are for Canada have been written by people who
   want to enforce copyright increasingly strongly rather than get
   creative with Fair Dealing.
All that said, if your library has a copy of "Canadian Copyright - A
Citizen's Guide" by Murray & Trosow that's a good resource that looks at
the relevant law in a balanced way.
- Rob.

On Thu, 29 Mar 2018, at 1:40 PM, Jim Andrews wrote:
> Hi Deanne,


> Adeena's friend Bob Kasher cited the Richard Prince case
>  (
>  https://www.artinamericamagazine.com/news-features/news/richard-prince-wins-major-victory-in-landmark-copyright-suit/
>  )>  in his claim that "you have no copyright concerns (see above link).
>  Prince vs. Rastafarian set the copyright precedent here for all
>  imagery use. As long as you are distorting, collaging it etc. you own
>  it. It doesn't matter where it came from."> 
>  If somebody used my work in the way I've used this work, I'd be OK
>  with it as long as they didn't make a significant sum from it. If
>  they did that, I'd want some recompense.> So I'm still pretty confused about the legality.


> ja


> 
> On 3/29/2018 1:19 PM, Deanne Achong | Dia Media wrote:
>> Hi Jim,
>> 
>> Great question.
>> Miles has covered the ?legalese? angle very well:)
>> 
>> I?ve used a lot of ?found images? - in general I stay within stuff
>> that is at least 50 years old, which doesn?t always cover copyright
>> (thanks to that pesky Mickey Mouse) but if I found it via archive.org
>> for example, it usually does:)>> 
>> My 2 cents would be this: 
>> 
>> 1. Richard Prince did that piece where he used Instagram images and
>>    then sold them for a pretty penny. This is totally kosher and
>>    almost normal for his practice and all those other academic
>>    arguments . I think in general the non-art public was quite
>>    insulted and hurt. (which is a funny word to use, but people feel
>>    attached to their images, whether or not they ?should?.) Also yup,
>>    maybe it was just a strategy to re-raise his profile.>> 
>> 2. When I used to teach, I would ask students, how would you feel if
>>    someone took your artwork and used it as you are planning to do?
>>    If the answer if ?outraged? or any variation thereof, then the
>>    answer about using it clear. At least from an ethical perspective.>> 
>> 3. Whoops that?s 3 cents:) - anything on the internet appears in a
>>    database that is probably up for grabs. I?ve seem some of my
>>    photographs used to sell things on Craigslist. Slightly amusing,
>>    minor ruffling of feathers, and a general shrugging of my
>>    shoulders.>> 
>> 
>> Cheers,
>> Deanne
>> 
>> 
>> Deanne Achong 
>> GoodyBank
>> Digital Strategy + Design Studio
>> https://goodybank.com
>> 604-708-4185
>> 
>> +> https://www.deanneachong.com - ART
>> ++>> https://www.instagram.com/piquette/
>> 
>>> On Mar 29, 2018, at 1:02 PM, Jim Andrews <jim at vispo.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Right. So it's OK as long as it's completely inconsequential.


>>> ja


>>> 
>>> On 3/29/2018 12:58 PM, Miles Thorogood wrote:
>>>> That sounds about the gist of it.
>>>> 
>>>> On Thu, Mar 29, 2018, 12:51 PM Jim Andrews <jim at vispo.com> wrote:
>>>>> Thanks, Miles. My reading of the below is that it implies 
>>>>> http://vispo.com/aleph3/an.html?d=Adeena%20Karasick%201
>>>>>  is OK as long as no money is involved and it doesn't go viral. As
>>>>>  soon as it becomes popular or somebody wants to buy a copy of
>>>>>  Aleph Null that contains Checking In, all bets are off.>>>>> ja


>>>>> 
>>>>> On 3/29/2018 12:32 PM, Miles Thorogood wrote:
>>>>>> Hi Jim,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I'm not a legal expert so don't consider this legal advice. At
>>>>>> one point I was asking a similar question regarding what my
>>>>>> students are*allowed* to do in terms of using digital assets in
>>>>>> their work. The UBCO library gave us some useful resources that I
>>>>>> will share with you here. I'll skip the content of public domain
>>>>>> images and obtain permissions and jump straight to piece on fair
>>>>>> dealing and the remix exceptions.>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> *Fair dealing exception*
>>>>>>  Fair dealing is a user right contained in the Copyright Act that
>>>>>>  allows you to copy from a copyrighted work, without the
>>>>>>  copyright owner's permission, if:>>>>>>  1. The copy is for the purposes of
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  * Research
>>>>>>  * Private Study
>>>>>>  * Education
>>>>>>  * Criticism or Review
>>>>>>  * Parody or Satire
>>>>>>  * News reporting>>>>>> 2. The use is ?fair??
>>>>>>  Dealing can be considered fair based on:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> *Non-Commercial User-Generated Content Exception*
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  * AKA the ?Mash-Up Exception?
>>>>>>  * Allows individuals to use a published work to create and
>>>>>>    communicate a new work, as long as:
>>>>>>  * the purpose is strictly non-commercial;
>>>>>>  * you use a legal copy of the original work;
>>>>>>  * you identify the author and source of the original work; and
>>>>>>  * the new work does not adversely impact the copyright owner of
>>>>>>    the original.>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I hope some of this is useful for your cause.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Miles
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Thu, Mar 29, 2018 at 11:24 AM, Jim Andrews <jim at vispo.com>
>>>>>> wrote:>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I'm unsure of the legality of a piece that I've created with the
>>>>>>> poet Adeena Karasick. I wonder if those in the know on legal use
>>>>>>> of images might tell me what you think.>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>  The piece is at
>>>>>>>  http://vispo.com/aleph3/an.html?d=Adeena%20Karasick%201>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>  Best experienced on a desktop/laptop machine, though it runs OK
>>>>>>>  on mobile devices. Click the aleph at top left to toggle
>>>>>>>  display of the controls.>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>  The text is Adeena's. She owns it for sure. No problem there.
>>>>>>>  It's the text of her new book Checking In coming out soon from
>>>>>>>  Talonbooks in Vancouver. And the programming is mine. The
>>>>>>>  program the piece is in is one I wrote called Aleph Null 3.0.>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>  The issue is the images in the background and the images used
>>>>>>>  to fill the text.>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>  Adeena selected 208 images from the net and from her own images
>>>>>>>  for me to use in this piece. She didn't get them by license in
>>>>>>>  google image search. She just picked the most relevant images
>>>>>>>  for the text of the project.>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>  She and a friend of hers think this is legal use of these
>>>>>>>  images. I'm not so sure. What do you think?>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>  I really like the piece itself. And Adeena's text is terrific.
>>>>>>>  But I am quite unsure about the legalities of image use. And it
>>>>>>>  isn't the 90's anymore. Things are changing. Google recently
>>>>>>>  changed their image search so that you have to visit the site
>>>>>>>  on which the image is located before you can save it. And of
>>>>>>>  course there's the whole Facebook data issue. People are re-
>>>>>>>  examining ownership of digitized/digital stuff.>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>  ja
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>  _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>  x mailing list
>>>>>>> x at vispo.com
>>>>>>> http://vispo.com/mailman/listinfo/x_vispo.com
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________ x mailing list
>>>>>> x at vispo.com http://vispo.com/mailman/listinfo/x_vispo.com
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>  x mailing list
>>>>> x at vispo.com
>>>>> http://vispo.com/mailman/listinfo/x_vispo.com
>>>> 
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________ x mailing list
>>>> x at vispo.com http://vispo.com/mailman/listinfo/x_vispo.com
>>>>>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>  x mailing list
>>> x at vispo.com
>>> http://vispo.com/mailman/listinfo/x_vispo.com
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>
>> _______________________________________________ x mailing list
>> x at vispo.com http://vispo.com/mailman/listinfo/x_vispo.com
>>> 
> _________________________________________________
> x mailing list
> x at vispo.com
> http://vispo.com/mailman/listinfo/x_vispo.com

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From jim at vispo.com  Thu Mar 29 16:17:08 2018
From: jim at vispo.com (Jim Andrews)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2018 14:17:08 -0700
Subject: [x] Checking In
In-Reply-To: <1522357637.2468673.1320761336.345D249D@webmail.messagingengine.com>
References: <a5ef5a7f-71a1-60e3-2281-6add6b76ca94@vispo.com>
	<CAFyaV1Mnwy6y3tq1uQBk70hdTO_vtkHTPRM9-G6edb=q-vccpg@mail.gmail.com>
	<43e18ed2-2440-eb16-38b0-e42362720c23@vispo.com>
	<CAFyaV1PU6UJmZckA6w6dw6SywtVVrwYD3+spBp9oohs=K-hhYw@mail.gmail.com>
	<51cf69ac-9c14-4caa-fcbf-c7952a3b121e@vispo.com>
	<D6B1006F-B484-4783-B498-12DDC90EB336@diamedia.net>
	<721b9351-aac3-91c6-726a-f7eda8b551c8@vispo.com>
	<1522357637.2468673.1320761336.345D249D@webmail.messagingengine.com>
Message-ID: <9f13b26d-ef09-25eb-dd51-be668500abd0@vispo.com>

Thanks very much, Rob. It sounds like you have looked into copyright in 
Canada rather well--like you look into whatever you look into. I'll pick 
up a copy of Murray and Troscow.

ja


On 3/29/2018 2:07 PM, Rob Myers wrote:
> The Prince case was fascinating but it was in the US, so it doesn't 
> set a precedent for Canada.
>
> There are two problems you'll encounter researching this area.
>
> 1. Most resources are for the US, and so cover Fair Use rather than 
> Fair Dealing, and concentrate on US legal precedents.
>
> 2. Most resources that are for Canada have been written by people who 
> want to enforce copyright increasingly strongly rather than get 
> creative with Fair Dealing.
>
> All that said, if your library has a copy of "Canadian Copyright - A 
> Citizen's Guide" by Murray & Trosow that's a good resource that looks 
> at the relevant law in a balanced way.
>
> - Rob.
>
> On Thu, 29 Mar 2018, at 1:40 PM, Jim Andrews wrote:
>>
>> Hi Deanne,
>>
>> Adeena's friend Bob Kasher cited the Richard Prince case
>> ( 
>> https://www.artinamericamagazine.com/news-features/news/richard-prince-wins-major-victory-in-landmark-copyright-suit/ 
>> )
>> in his claim that "you have no copyright concerns (see above link). 
>> Prince vs. Rastafarian set the copyright precedent here for all 
>> imagery use. As long as you are distorting, collaging it etc. you own 
>> it. It doesn't matter where it came from."
>>
>> If somebody used my work in the way I've used this work, I'd be OK 
>> with it as long as they didn't make a significant sum from it. If 
>> they did that, I'd want some recompense.
>>
>> So I'm still pretty confused about the legality.
>>
>> ja
>>
>>
>> On 3/29/2018 1:19 PM, Deanne Achong | Dia Media wrote:
>>> Hi Jim,
>>>
>>> Great question.
>>> Miles has covered the ?legalese? angle very well:)
>>>
>>> I?ve used a lot of ?found images? - in general I stay within stuff 
>>> that is at least 50 years old, which doesn?t always cover copyright 
>>> (thanks to that pesky Mickey Mouse) but if I found it via 
>>> archive.org <http://archive.org>?for example, it usually does:)
>>>
>>> My 2 cents would be this:
>>>
>>> 1. Richard Prince did that piece where he used Instagram images and 
>>> then sold them for a pretty penny. This is totally kosher and almost 
>>> normal for his practice and all those other academic arguments . I 
>>> think in general the non-art public was quite insulted and hurt. 
>>> (which is a funny word to use, but people feel attached to their 
>>> images, whether or not they ?should?.) Also yup, maybe it was just a 
>>> strategy to re-raise his profile.
>>>
>>> 2. When I used to teach, I would ask students, how would you feel if 
>>> someone took your artwork and used it as you are planning to do? If 
>>> the answer if ?outraged? or any variation thereof, then the answer 
>>> about using it clear. At least from an ethical perspective.
>>>
>>> 3. Whoops that?s 3 cents:) - anything on the internet appears in a 
>>> database that is probably up for grabs. I?ve seem some of my 
>>> photographs used to sell things on Craigslist. Slightly amusing, 
>>> minor ruffling of feathers, and a general shrugging of my shoulders.
>>>
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Deanne
>>>
>>>
>>> Deanne Achong
>>> GoodyBank
>>> Digital Strategy + Design Studio
>>> https://goodybank.com
>>> 604-708-4185
>>>
>>> +> https://www.deanneachong.com?- ART
>>> ++>> https://www.instagram.com/piquette/
>>>
>>>> On Mar 29, 2018, at 1:02 PM, Jim Andrews <jim at vispo.com 
>>>> <mailto:jim at vispo.com>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Right. So it's OK as long as it's completely inconsequential.
>>>>
>>>> ja
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 3/29/2018 12:58 PM, Miles Thorogood wrote:
>>>>> That sounds about the gist of it.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Mar 29, 2018, 12:51 PM Jim Andrews <jim at vispo.com 
>>>>> <mailto:jim at vispo.com>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>     Thanks, Miles. My reading of the below is that it implies
>>>>>     http://vispo.com/aleph3/an.html?d=Adeena%20Karasick%201
>>>>>     is OK as long as no money is involved and it doesn't go viral.
>>>>>     As soon as it becomes popular or somebody wants to buy a copy
>>>>>     of Aleph Null that contains Checking In, all bets are off.
>>>>>
>>>>>     ja
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>     On 3/29/2018 12:32 PM, Miles Thorogood wrote:
>>>>>>     Hi Jim,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     I'm not a legal expert so don't consider this legal advice.
>>>>>>     At one point I was asking a similar question regarding what
>>>>>>     my students are*allowed* to do in terms of using digital
>>>>>>     assets in their work. The UBCO library gave us some useful
>>>>>>     resources that I will share with you here. I'll skip the
>>>>>>     content of public domain images and obtain permissions and
>>>>>>     jump straight to piece on fair dealing and the remix exceptions.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     *Fair dealing exception*
>>>>>>     Fair dealing is a user right contained in the Copyright Act
>>>>>>     that allows you to copy from a copyrighted work, without the
>>>>>>     copyright owner's permission, if:
>>>>>>     1. The copy is for the purposes of
>>>>>>
>>>>>>       * Research
>>>>>>       * Private Study
>>>>>>       * Education
>>>>>>       * Criticism or Review
>>>>>>       * Parody or Satire
>>>>>>       * News reporting
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     2. The use is ?fair??
>>>>>>     Dealing can be considered fair based on:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     *Non-Commercial User-Generated Content Exception*
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>       * AKA the ?Mash-Up Exception?
>>>>>>       * Allows individuals to use a published work to create and
>>>>>>         communicate a new work, as long as:
>>>>>>       * the purpose is strictly non-commercial;
>>>>>>       * you use a legal copy of the original work;
>>>>>>       * you identify the author and source of the original work; and
>>>>>>       * the new work does not adversely impact the copyright
>>>>>>         owner of the original.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     I hope some of this is useful for your cause.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     Best,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     Miles
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     On Thu, Mar 29, 2018 at 11:24 AM, Jim Andrews <jim at vispo.com
>>>>>>     <mailto:jim at vispo.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>         I'm unsure of the legality of a piece that I've created
>>>>>>         with the poet Adeena Karasick. I wonder if those in the
>>>>>>         know on legal use of images might tell me what you think.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>         The piece is at
>>>>>>         http://vispo.com/aleph3/an.html?d=Adeena%20Karasick%201
>>>>>>
>>>>>>         Best experienced on a desktop/laptop machine, though it
>>>>>>         runs OK on mobile devices. Click the aleph at top left to
>>>>>>         toggle display of the controls.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>         The text is Adeena's. She owns it for sure. No problem
>>>>>>         there. It's the text of her new book Checking In coming
>>>>>>         out soon from Talonbooks in Vancouver. And the
>>>>>>         programming is mine. The program the piece is in is one I
>>>>>>         wrote called Aleph Null 3.0.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>         The issue is the images in the background and the images
>>>>>>         used to fill the text.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>         Adeena selected 208 images from the net and from her own
>>>>>>         images for me to use in this piece. She didn't get them
>>>>>>         by license in google image search. She just picked the
>>>>>>         most relevant images for the text of the project.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>         She and a friend of hers think this is legal use of these
>>>>>>         images. I'm not so sure. What do you think?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>         I really like the piece itself. And Adeena's text is
>>>>>>         terrific. But I am quite unsure about the legalities of
>>>>>>         image use. And it isn't the 90's anymore. Things are
>>>>>>         changing. Google recently changed their image search so
>>>>>>         that you have to visit the site on which the image is
>>>>>>         located before you can save it. And of course there's the
>>>>>>         whole Facebook data issue. People are re-examining
>>>>>>         ownership of digitized/digital stuff.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>         ja
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>         _______________________________________________
>>>>>>         x mailing list
>>>>>>         x at vispo.com <mailto:x at vispo.com>
>>>>>>         http://vispo.com/mailman/listinfo/x_vispo.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     _______________________________________________
>>>>>>     x mailing list
>>>>>>     x at vispo.com <mailto:x at vispo.com>
>>>>>>     http://vispo.com/mailman/listinfo/x_vispo.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>     _______________________________________________
>>>>>     x mailing list
>>>>>     x at vispo.com <mailto:x at vispo.com>
>>>>>     http://vispo.com/mailman/listinfo/x_vispo.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> x mailing list
>>>>> x at vispo.com <mailto:x at vispo.com>
>>>>> http://vispo.com/mailman/listinfo/x_vispo.com
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> x mailing list
>>>> x at vispo.com <mailto:x at vispo.com>
>>>> http://vispo.com/mailman/listinfo/x_vispo.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> x mailing list
>>> x at vispo.com <mailto:x at vispo.com>
>>> http://vispo.com/mailman/listinfo/x_vispo.com
>>>
>>
>> _________________________________________________
>> x mailing list
>> x at vispo.com <mailto:x at vispo.com>
>> http://vispo.com/mailman/listinfo/x_vispo.com
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> x mailing list
> x at vispo.com
> http://vispo.com/mailman/listinfo/x_vispo.com

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From ben at ekran.org  Thu Mar 29 16:59:33 2018
From: ben at ekran.org (B. Bogart)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2018 14:59:33 -0700
Subject: [x] Checking In
In-Reply-To: <721b9351-aac3-91c6-726a-f7eda8b551c8@vispo.com>
References: <a5ef5a7f-71a1-60e3-2281-6add6b76ca94@vispo.com>
	<CAFyaV1Mnwy6y3tq1uQBk70hdTO_vtkHTPRM9-G6edb=q-vccpg@mail.gmail.com>
	<43e18ed2-2440-eb16-38b0-e42362720c23@vispo.com>
	<CAFyaV1PU6UJmZckA6w6dw6SywtVVrwYD3+spBp9oohs=K-hhYw@mail.gmail.com>
	<51cf69ac-9c14-4caa-fcbf-c7952a3b121e@vispo.com>
	<D6B1006F-B484-4783-B498-12DDC90EB336@diamedia.net>
	<721b9351-aac3-91c6-726a-f7eda8b551c8@vispo.com>
Message-ID: <4b667e1b-0105-93c4-c73a-f4f4284de5ec@ekran.org>

Hi Jim,

You should book an appointment to talk to a lawyer for free:

https://artistslegaloutreach.com/clinic-2/intake-form/for-individuals/

The 'distortion' pertains to "transformation"; this is part of US
copyright law, but not Canadian copyright law -- where we are simply
limited to types of fair dealing use as already outlined by Miles.

>From my own experience with ALO in regards to my cinema appropriations
the bottom line is that there is still a lot legal grey area and not
enough case-law in Canada to firm up those boundaries.

I got around my youtube copyright strike (for *documentation of a work*)
with this:

Under Fair Dealing the use of Kubrick's 2001: A Space Odyssey in this
video is fair.

Purpose:

(1) This work was produced during my graduate studies as a research
project where machine learning methods are used to analyse and
deconstruct the original film to create novel images. A small subset of
original frames are also included for the viewer to consider in relation
to the novel productions.

Fairness:

(2) Character: this video shows documentation of an installation artwork
where only a subset of frames from the original are shown and none of
the audio is used.

(3) Amount: this ~30min video contains 1800 frames from the film,
corresponding to less than ~1% of the frames in the original.

(4) Alternatives: this film is chosen expressly to contribute to the
meaning of the artwork represented in this video because of (a)
Kubrick's unique slow and graphic style, (b) the portrayal of an
intelligent machine, and (c) Arthur C. Clarke's conception of machines
as being capable of dreaming.

(5) Effect: Following from #2, the use of frames from the original film
are presented in documentation of an artwork that is in no way a
substitute for the original: (a) 99% of the frames in the original film
do not appear in this video, (b) the original audio is entirely absent,
(c) the frames are shown in the unique context of an artwork that
processes video frames using machine learning, and (d) this video is
documentation and has no capacity to effect sales of the original film.

This is not legal advice.

B.

On 2018-03-29 01:40 PM, Jim Andrews wrote:
> Hi Deanne,
> 
> Adeena's friend Bob Kasher cited the Richard Prince case
> (
> https://www.artinamericamagazine.com/news-features/news/richard-prince-wins-major-victory-in-landmark-copyright-suit/
> )
> in his claim that "you have no copyright concerns (see above link).
> Prince vs. Rastafarian set the copyright precedent here for all imagery
> use. As long as you are distorting, collaging it etc. you own it. It
> doesn't matter where it came from."
> 
> If somebody used my work in the way I've used this work, I'd be OK with
> it as long as they didn't make a significant sum from it. If they did
> that, I'd want some recompense.
> 
> So I'm still pretty confused about the legality.
> 
> ja
> 
> 
> On 3/29/2018 1:19 PM, Deanne Achong | Dia Media wrote:
>> Hi Jim,
>>
>> Great question.
>> Miles has covered the ?legalese? angle very well:)
>>
>> I?ve used a lot of ?found images? - in general I stay within stuff
>> that is at least 50 years old, which doesn?t always cover copyright
>> (thanks to that pesky Mickey Mouse) but if I found it via archive.org
>> <http://archive.org>?for example, it usually does:)
>>
>> My 2 cents would be this:?
>>
>> 1. Richard Prince did that piece where he used Instagram images and
>> then sold them for a pretty penny. This is totally kosher and almost
>> normal for his practice and all those other academic arguments . I
>> think in general the non-art public was quite insulted and hurt.
>> (which is a funny word to use, but people feel attached to their
>> images, whether or not they ?should?.) Also yup, maybe it was just a
>> strategy to re-raise his profile.
>>
>> 2. When I used to teach, I would ask students, how would you feel if
>> someone took your artwork and used it as you are planning to do? If
>> the answer if ?outraged? or any variation thereof, then the answer
>> about using it clear. At least from an ethical perspective.
>>
>> 3. Whoops that?s 3 cents:) - anything on the internet appears in a
>> database that is probably up for grabs. I?ve seem some of my
>> photographs used to sell things on Craigslist. Slightly amusing, minor
>> ruffling of feathers, and a general shrugging of my shoulders.?
>>
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Deanne
>>
>>
>> Deanne Achong?
>> GoodyBank
>> Digital Strategy + Design Studio
>> https://goodybank.com
>> 604-708-4185
>>
>> +>?https://www.deanneachong.com?- ART
>> ++>>?https://www.instagram.com/piquette/
>>
>>> On Mar 29, 2018, at 1:02 PM, Jim Andrews <jim at vispo.com
>>> <mailto:jim at vispo.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Right. So it's OK as long as it's completely inconsequential.
>>>
>>> ja
>>>
>>>
>>> On 3/29/2018 12:58 PM, Miles Thorogood wrote:
>>>> That sounds about the gist of it.
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Mar 29, 2018, 12:51 PM Jim Andrews <jim at vispo.com
>>>> <mailto:jim at vispo.com>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>     Thanks, Miles. My reading of the below is that it implies
>>>>     http://vispo.com/aleph3/an.html?d=Adeena%20Karasick%201
>>>>     is OK as long as no money is involved and it doesn't go viral.
>>>>     As soon as it becomes popular or somebody wants to buy a copy of
>>>>     Aleph Null that contains Checking In, all bets are off.
>>>>
>>>>     ja
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>     On 3/29/2018 12:32 PM, Miles Thorogood wrote:
>>>>>     Hi Jim,
>>>>>
>>>>>     I'm not a legal expert so don't consider this legal advice. At
>>>>>     one point I was asking a similar question regarding what my
>>>>>     students are *allowed* to do in terms of using digital assets
>>>>>     in their work. The UBCO library gave us some useful resources
>>>>>     that I will share with you here. I'll skip the content of
>>>>>     public domain images and obtain permissions and jump straight
>>>>>     to piece on fair dealing and the remix exceptions.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>     *Fair dealing exception*
>>>>>     Fair dealing is a user right contained in the Copyright Act
>>>>>     that allows you to copy from a copyrighted work, without the
>>>>>     copyright owner's permission, if:
>>>>>     1. The copy is for the purposes of
>>>>>
>>>>>       * Research
>>>>>       * Private Study
>>>>>       * Education
>>>>>       * Criticism or Review
>>>>>       * Parody or Satire
>>>>>       * News reporting
>>>>>
>>>>>     2. The use is ?fair??
>>>>>     Dealing can be considered fair based on:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>     *Non-Commercial User-Generated Content Exception*
>>>>>
>>>>>       * AKA the ?Mash-Up Exception?
>>>>>       * Allows individuals to use a published work to create and
>>>>>         communicate a new work, as long as:
>>>>>       * the purpose is strictly non-commercial;
>>>>>       * you use a legal copy of the original work;
>>>>>       * you identify the author and source of the original work; and
>>>>>       * the new work does not adversely impact the copyright owner
>>>>>         of the original.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>     I hope some of this is useful for your cause.
>>>>>
>>>>>     Best,
>>>>>     Miles
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>     On Thu, Mar 29, 2018 at 11:24 AM, Jim Andrews <jim at vispo.com
>>>>>     <mailto:jim at vispo.com>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>         I'm unsure of the legality of a piece that I've created
>>>>>         with the poet Adeena Karasick. I wonder if those in the
>>>>>         know on legal use of images might tell me what you think.
>>>>>
>>>>>         The piece is at
>>>>>         http://vispo.com/aleph3/an.html?d=Adeena%20Karasick%201
>>>>>
>>>>>         Best experienced on a desktop/laptop machine, though it
>>>>>         runs OK on mobile devices. Click the aleph at top left to
>>>>>         toggle display of the controls.
>>>>>
>>>>>         The text is Adeena's. She owns it for sure. No problem
>>>>>         there. It's the text of her new book Checking In coming out
>>>>>         soon from Talonbooks in Vancouver. And the programming is
>>>>>         mine. The program the piece is in is one I wrote called
>>>>>         Aleph Null 3.0.
>>>>>
>>>>>         The issue is the images in the background and the images
>>>>>         used to fill the text.
>>>>>
>>>>>         Adeena selected 208 images from the net and from her own
>>>>>         images for me to use in this piece. She didn't get them by
>>>>>         license in google image search. She just picked the most
>>>>>         relevant images for the text of the project.
>>>>>
>>>>>         She and a friend of hers think this is legal use of these
>>>>>         images. I'm not so sure. What do you think?
>>>>>
>>>>>         I really like the piece itself. And Adeena's text is
>>>>>         terrific. But I am quite unsure about the legalities of
>>>>>         image use. And it isn't the 90's anymore. Things are
>>>>>         changing. Google recently changed their image search so
>>>>>         that you have to visit the site on which the image is
>>>>>         located before you can save it. And of course there's the
>>>>>         whole Facebook data issue. People are re-examining
>>>>>         ownership of digitized/digital stuff.
>>>>>
>>>>>         ja
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>         _______________________________________________
>>>>>         x mailing list
>>>>>         x at vispo.com <mailto:x at vispo.com>
>>>>>         http://vispo.com/mailman/listinfo/x_vispo.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>     _______________________________________________
>>>>>     x mailing list
>>>>>     x at vispo.com <mailto:x at vispo.com>
>>>>>     http://vispo.com/mailman/listinfo/x_vispo.com
>>>>
>>>>     _______________________________________________
>>>>     x mailing list
>>>>     x at vispo.com <mailto:x at vispo.com>
>>>>     http://vispo.com/mailman/listinfo/x_vispo.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> x mailing list
>>>> x at vispo.com
>>>> http://vispo.com/mailman/listinfo/x_vispo.com
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> x mailing list
>>> x at vispo.com <mailto:x at vispo.com>
>>> http://vispo.com/mailman/listinfo/x_vispo.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> x mailing list
>> x at vispo.com
>> http://vispo.com/mailman/listinfo/x_vispo.com
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> x mailing list
> x at vispo.com
> http://vispo.com/mailman/listinfo/x_vispo.com
> 



