|
| [13:30] |
Surd |
Seattle was a big world wide protest of that
this last week. |
| [13:30] |
mIEKAL |
this
split that you are talking of didnt start with internet...
|
| [13:30] |
mIEKAL |
it
started with imperialism & capital |
| [13:31] |
mIEKAL |
apart
from being devil's advocate tho. |
| [13:31] |
Surd |
There
have been similar protests elsewhere in the world recently.
|
| [13:31] |
mIEKAL |
dont
you think there are more marginal forces represented on/thru
internet than ever before. |
| [13:32] |
billseye |
i
would say too that it's *because* you're right about what the Web is
that we have to watch how it's used |
| [13:32] |
mIEKAL |
for
the underground art world it especially seems true. |
| [13:32] |
mIEKAL |
but
bill, it remains a hacker's medium |
| [13:33] |
mIEKAL |
&
perhaps that is where our trust should lie in it as a medium.
|
| [13:33] |
|
*[brick] thinks the hacker is coyote
|
| [13:33] |
billseye |
yes,
but where did i hear/read talk about how the police industries (CIA,
etc.) are setting up monitoring devices to watch for interests on
the web that go against "the public good" -- |
| [13:33] |
mIEKAL |
the
whole thing with etoys is a good example. |
| [13:33] |
billseye |
hacker = coyote --> perfect |
| [13:33] |
mIEKAL |
yes
willey the |
| [13:34] |
mIEKAL |
when
I did public art in madison |
| [13:34] |
mIEKAL |
in
the 80s, someone at the mayors office |
| [13:34] |
mIEKAL |
said
my file was 4 inches thick with |
| [13:35] |
mIEKAL |
data
that had been collected about my actions. |
| [13:35] |
mIEKAL |
it
has always been that way. |
| [13:35] |
billseye |
in
other words, they fear the web as a means by which counter-groups
can organize (the Zapatistas did it that way, evidently) and they
want to control that |
| [13:35] |
[brick] |
i
read an interesting argument re the monitoring devices employed by
the police industries...instead of trying to stop it (which isn't
possible), embrace it and monitor them right back...ushering in an
age of absolute accountability |
| [13:35] |
mIEKAL |
&
of course being a hacker's medium, these things are hackable as
well. |
| [13:35] |
mIEKAL |
good
dan |
| [13:36] |
[brick] |
interesting anyway, in that it addresses a
certain inevitability |
| [13:36] |
mIEKAL |
but
my interests are less orwellian, more geared toward poly local
communities |
| [13:36] |
mIEKAL |
that
are quite small... |
| [13:36] |
[brick] |
i am
a firm believer in personal freedoms, but the monitoring tech is
*happening* |
| [13:37] |
Surd |
Yes,
although it's probably 10,000 inches thick and they can't find
anything. |
| [13:37] |
mIEKAL |
so I
wouldnt mind turning the discussion toward broadcasting..
|
| [13:37] |
[brick] |
okee |
| [13:37] |
Surd |
What
about it? |
| [13:38] |
billseye |
right, and my hope is that the *ingenuity* of
our age in the tech world will constantly find ways to "back door"
or bypass controls -- |
| [13:38] |
mIEKAL |
well,
just thinking out loud about it. |
| [13:38] |
Surd |
Certainly is part of the change in publishing,
among other things. |
| [13:38] |
mIEKAL |
how
one can start taking advantage of the performative aspects of online
culture. |
| [13:39] |
mIEKAL |
&
in particular, do we need passive audiences anymore |
| [13:39] |
Surd |
Relates to collaboration, also, doesn't
it. |
| [13:40] |
mIEKAL |
is
that a remnant of tv culture? |
| [13:40] |
[brick] |
some
ppl prefer to be passive audiences, no? |
| [13:41] |
billseye |
i'm
looking forward to the day when 99% of american households have
internet hook-ups the same way they have tv's now -- but as with tv,
most will be using it for shopping and other kinds of consumption
|
| [13:41] |
mIEKAL |
but
maybe 10 people participating is more fruitful than 1000
listening. |
| [13:41] |
mIEKAL |
I
have a phone call, give me 5 |
| [13:42] |
Surd |
k |
| [13:42] |
billseye |
part
of a new media training in the schools has to be about *not*
thinking of the computer as a new kind of tv! |
| [13:42] |
Surd |
That's where we come in, among
other places. |
| [13:43] |
billseye |
agreed -- have to be ready for that question:
"Hey, where's the remote?" -- ;) |
| [13:43] |
[brick] |
i
have noticed a change in my families youngins....we used to joke at
xmas that they would only say, "turn it on, plug it in, do it for
me" and now at the computer they say, "i got it, okay, let me do it"
which is very intense to see |
| [13:43] |
mIEKAL |
its a
2 way medium |
| [13:44] |
billseye |
that's encouraging, dan! |
| [13:44] |
mIEKAL |
&
could really be developed alot more in that direction |
| [13:44] |
mIEKAL |
but
Im also of the conviction that the new is always possible culturally
as well as technically |
| [13:45] |
billseye |
i
once had this idea for an easy chair with a computer attached -- for
more comfortable interaction with the computer -- would sell
probably -- instead of being "stationed" in front of it
|
| [13:45] |
Surd |
I think
technology
is at least as much lead by the zeit as determining it, if
not moreso. |
| [13:45] |
mIEKAL |
&
I think the foundations for imagination evolving into directions we
cant imagine |
| [13:46] |
mIEKAL |
are
multiplied greatly by being able to access others which we have not
had the opportunity to until recently |
| [13:46] |
mIEKAL |
zeit
is? |
| [13:46] |
[brick] |
bill,
i saw a split keyboard that you mount one half to the left armrest,
and the other half to the right armrest for relaxed typing...also
had foot operated mouse operations...full recline |
| [13:46] |
mIEKAL |
spirit? |
| [13:46] |
billseye |
yes,
miekal, and it that sense i don't read your words as "new age fluff"
because they're situated in more crystalline notions -- excuse the
crystal pun |
| [13:46] |
billseye |
dan,
that's it! |
| [13:46] |
Surd |
The
decentralization and authorlessness, for instance, written about in
the sixties and seventies is coming home to roost. |
| [13:47] |
mIEKAL |
jim,
both of these notions have to be present for the kinds of
imaginative iniatives Im speaking of. |
| [13:47] |
Surd |
zeitgeist=spirit of the age |
| [13:47] |
mIEKAL |
almost akin to indigenous pageantry
|
| [13:48] |
mIEKAL |
where
the individual disappears into a massive group project.
|
| [13:48] |
mIEKAL |
but
then there is the resume, & getting gigs, & becoming
known. |
| [13:49] |
billseye |
i'm
always amazed at how quickly and easily my students take to the idea
of decentralization or authorlessness in electronic writing (the
standard theory stuff) -- but i think they like it as a release from
agency, ie, don't see it as a responsibility but as a release from
having to be "an author" -- which is not all bad |
| [13:49] |
mIEKAL |
however one gets there. |
| [13:50] |
mIEKAL |
tho
Im not trying to destroy writing as a genre or a need. |
| [13:50] |
mIEKAL |
or a
responsibility |
| [13:50] |
mIEKAL |
but
that there is something else now on our plate & we are the first
one's to take a shot at |
| [13:50] |
mIEKAL |
defining it by our actions. |
| [13:51] |
mIEKAL |
I got
asked to write a paper on what the schism is between online poetry
& hard copy... |
| [13:51] |
Surd |
Don't
you feel, though, that the individual is 'under erasure' in society
quite enough as it is? |
| [13:52] |
mIEKAL |
where
that is going & how my own work responds to that. |
| [13:52] |
mIEKAL |
in
someways Im doing the same work Ive always done |
| [13:52] |
mIEKAL |
Im
marginalized once more by the medium |
| [13:53] |
Surd |
Marginalized? |
| [13:53] |
billseye |
it
think it has to be the same work... |
| [13:54] |
mIEKAL |
in
the minds of experimental writers who dont consider online work in
the same breath as book publication. |
| [13:54] |
mIEKAL |
or
for instance my friend that I write with, Maria |
| [13:54] |
Surd |
Well,
yes, the margin is largely a thing of the page. |
| [13:54] |
mIEKAL |
cannot get publication credits toward her
salary |
| [13:54] |
mIEKAL |
for
our online works.... |
| [13:54] |
mIEKAL |
even
tho it has generate a lot of attention & been in a national
touring show. |
| [13:55] |
mIEKAL |
&
even tho some of her online stuff is in juried mags. |
| [13:55] |
|
***reiner has joined #defib |
| [13:55] |
billseye |
yes,
miekal, it's all over Poetics too -- it's not taken too seriously,
it's sometimes ridiculed, and i'm amazed at how some champions of
resisting exclusivity are often the same ones who won't look twice
at digital poetries |
| [13:56] |
mIEKAL |
hi
reiner |
| [13:56] |
Surd |
Hi
reiner |
| [13:56] |
reiner |
hi.hi.hi |
| [13:56] |
billseye |
hey
reiner |
| [13:56] |
reiner |
i am
too late ? |
| [13:56] |
Surd |
no |
| [13:56] |
mIEKAL |
that
is one of the sadnesses of the poetics list. |
| [13:56] |
|
*[brick] would agree |
| [13:56] |
[brick] |
hi
reiner |
| [13:56] |
mIEKAL |
&
strange because loss & charles b were the ones who had most to
do with starting it. |
| [13:56] |
reiner |
i had
problems to get in |
| [13:57] |
mIEKAL |
&
they are both very supportive of online lit kulcher |
| [13:57] |
billseye |
and
it seems so obvious, yet any suggestions toward this exclusivity and
marginalization from *within* the so-called marginalized crowd of
a-g poetics is met with puzzled looks of incredulity |
| [13:58] |
mIEKAL |
everyone is guarding their positions,
territories occupied |
| [13:58] |
billseye |
yes,
those two are supportive, but i think a lot of the gen crowd just
doesn't get it and doesn't want to have to learn the new vocab to
get it -- abstract disjunctive poetry is tough enough |
| [13:58] |
mIEKAL |
the
spirit of the mimeo revolution is no longer. |
| [13:58] |
[brick] |
backchannel one told me they don't take it
seriously because there isn't any quality stuff yet (!)
|
| [13:59] |
mIEKAL |
dan,
that's just plain ignorant |
| [13:59] |
billseye |
exactly! what's "quality"?! |
| [13:59] |
mIEKAL |
no
matter what one's aesthetics are |
| [13:59] |
|
*[brick] agrees |
| [13:59] |
[brick] |
it's
so ignorant it's difficult to respond to |
| [13:59] |
mIEKAL |
but I
sense that there is a politic going on as well |
| [13:59] |
mIEKAL |
what
we are doing is very threatening in someways. |
| |
|
|
