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Session Start: Sun Feb 20 12:00:00 2000
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***Now talking in #defib
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***ChanServ changes topic to 'Riding the Meridian--Women and Technology, Sun Feb 20, noon PST, 20:00 GMT'
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<Surd> |
Welcome to this discussion of the new issue of Riding the Meridian--Women and Technology.
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cguertin* wonders
what would a female-designed interface look like?
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<Surd> |
Why an issue on Women and Technology, Jen?
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<jley> |
I wanted to do an issue on Women and Tech for a few reasons
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<jley> |
one ... DAC was so inspirational ... and I got to meet many of the women who are in this issue
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<jley> |
two ... Judy Malloy held an excellent conference over the summer called Gender and Identity in New Media
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<Helen> |
it was noticeable at DAC how the women were the ones striding ahead with the technology
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<jley> |
and it became evident that ... our numbers were greater than we knew
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<Djuna> |
in what way?
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<jley> |
I've had men say to me 'women are having all the fun in
hypertext' |
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<Helen> |
:)
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*Sue smirks
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<Djuna> |
right on!
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<cguertin> |
working on it ;-)
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<jley> |
that's a generalization ... but there are an amazing amount of talented women in this field
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<jley> |
it seemed time to try to get even more of them together
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<jley> |
and show the incredible variety of their work
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<Surd> |
Yes, well the new issue certainly makes that point.
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<mez> |
jen>>so u think "women" have ah lezz restrictive bent to using new tech media?
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<jley> |
mmmm I'm not sure
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<jley> |
Carolyn said once that because there is so little history in hypertext ...
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<mez> |
itz a hard one to fathom methinkz
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<jley> |
women feel freer to create within it
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<Djuna> |
i greatly appreciated it because although there are a lot them [us] they're a lot harder to find (it's still a man's world)
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<jley> |
right Carolyn?
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<Helen> |
many men only want to use it to see Lara Croft in better resolution
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<mez> |
eheeh helen:)
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<PbN> |
is Lara here?
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*Helen giggles
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*mez will be the token lara...NOT!
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<cguertin> |
i think that grammar is as yet undefined and that leaves the form open to play, to experimentation...
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<jley> |
exactly :)
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<Surd> |
What is the URL, Jen?
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<mez> |
ooh play, i luv 2 play:)
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<jley> |
Kate Hayles made the point that she thinks women at times use the tech to different ends than men
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<cguertin> |
women seem to be the most playful at this point in time
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*mez x-posez her childlike wurdcore ;)
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<jley> |
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<Helen> |
it's like cooking, experimenting with different ingredients see how it comes out
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<Djuna> |
woow - are you saying women want more creative freedom then men?
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<cguertin> |
it is indeed a melange of a form, a pinch of this, a smidge of that, and stir well
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<jley> |
Claire is your question to Carolyn ??
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<Surd> |
Different ends, Jen?
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<Djuna> |
in reaction to her statement, yes
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<cguertin> |
think i missed the question
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<jley> |
I believe (paraphrasing) she pointed out things like war games
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<jley> |
etc
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<Djuna> |
we're falling into cliches here ...
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*mez is curiouz az 2 how many girls [and token girlz] r professionalli trained multimediar creatorz?
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<jley> |
exactly. Kate said these were generalizations. Probably better if you read her comments rather than I try to paraphrase them :) |
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<Helen> |
there'll be more if Sue and I have our way...
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<Loss> |
How is the involvement of women in hypertext different than their involvement in print media?
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<mez> |
i mean here that iz!
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<Sue> |
-mez - very few men are prof trained either
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<Sue> |
it is a self-taught craft don't you think? |
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<Loss> |
One can point to examples of "play" in print also!
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<Djuna> |
can they ever!
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<jley> |
I'm not sure that the differences are what interests me the most
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<mez> |
i think the self-taught aspect is relevant, and mebbe super.seeds
gender |
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<cguertin> |
agreed, sue. but more men have a background in technology. there's something about teaching yourself the rudiments of a form that invites you, makes you more willing to bend the rules.
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<Sue> |
jen - tell us what interests you most
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<jley> |
more that there is no difficulty finding work by women that is wonderful by any criteria ...
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<Sue> |
-carolyn, yes i take your point
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<Loss> |
But it seemed to me, J, it was said there's more room for play here...
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<Loss> |
than print.
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<jley> |
historically Loss
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<Surd> |
I liked Diane Greco's point in the Meridian round table that the word 'Technology' in 'Women and Technology' kind of reads like the word 'Power'.
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<jley> |
ie ... I don't have to look at hundreds of years of history/men being the ones who did most of the creating that has been documented
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<cguertin> |
the heart of the form is a personal communion with its elements. women don't have the corner on that, but right now they are making the most of it
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<Sue> |
i like what both carolyn and jen are saying - yes
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<Djuna> |
ah, that makes a lot of sense Jen
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<Surd> |
Is the issue about questions of power?
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<jley> |
Access is power
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<jley> |
and women have access
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<jley> |
that may be one of the striking things about the net ... and what it has given us
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<margie> |
I think this might be temporary--as soon as there is a big audience and lots of money involved, it will be harder for women to get access, perhaps
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<jley> |
I wonder about that too margie
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<cguertin> |
web privatization looms...
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<Djuna> |
it's probably the first time in history we've had great access to a creative form publicly from the beginning
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<cguertin> |
helped create it too
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<Sue> |
-djuna good point
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<jley> |
So we need to make sure we maintain that
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<Loss> |
I think that privatization is a certainty.
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<jley> |
not just for women
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<Surd> |
Well of course that goes for me, too, Claire.
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<margie> |
yes, because so few people saw the potential at the beginning, but now...
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<jley> |
but for all creative people
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<jley> |
minorities
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<jley> |
etc
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*mez wonders if we are talkin about half the picture...class/educational etc
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<Sue> |
something that bothers me a lot..
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<Loss> |
Poets also
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<jley> |
and yes ... access is like it or not a class issue
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<cguertin> |
and a literacy issue
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<Sue> |
is that i would really prefer to get rid of the body issue all together
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<jley> |
and an english issue
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<Sue> |
i know it's naive and idealistic but men AND women are rediscovering themselves here
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<Sue> |
i would prefer a third gender on the web
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<PbN> |
YAY Sue!
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<Sue> |
long live the spivak!
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<margie> |
I think there is lots of access across classes just now--I know lots of women who bought web tv for their husbands, and chat all the time on it now
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<mez> |
ooh a third gender! great ideer... |
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*Sue bows
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<jley> |
I liked Carolyn Guyer's statement that our real challenge will be to deal with our multiplicity
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<cguertin> |
the mandate of the issue, however, was work by women. in the fall, Jen and Margie will look at another gender, male.
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<jley> |
and LOOK we will teehee
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<jley> |
just kidding
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<Sue> |
yes, multiplicity rules
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<mez> |
i
really like the balance there...well done with harmonizing the debate j & m...
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*margie starts rummaging through the calendar, weeping
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<Sue> |
jen- will it be pinups? oo er!
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<jley> |
poets in socks??
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<jley> |
sorry :)
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<Sue> |
please - not poets
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<mez> |
eheheh
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<Sue> |
cyborgs
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<cguertin> |
there are no bodies here in virtuality, but there are genders, sexualities, voices...and poets in their stocking feet...
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<Surd> |
There is another great 'cultural question', that of the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer... related?
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<margie> |
the men will get to make paper airplanes
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<margie> |
Jim has a point--but that will also happen with internet providers
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<Surd> |
What will?
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<Sue> |
but will poverty stop ppl having net access?
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<jley> |
well, capitalism just seems to support the creation and then the tearing down of monopolies
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<jley> |
I know there are organizations that are working to provide more access
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<margie> |
a great divide between the biggies and the rest of us
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<Sue> |
are you talking globally or inside the US etc?
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<Helen> |
in the UK WAP phones are supposed to be about to revolutionise access -- but I'm not so sure
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<jley> |
in the US Sue ... I've seen them ... you can donate your computer ... etc
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<Sue> |
ok
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<Sue> |
well
that's another conversation i think |
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<jley> |
I think
so too |
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<Sue> |
it can
be a diversion |
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<Surd> |
Jen,
could you give us an overview of the new issue? |
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<jley> |
Sure |
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<Djuna> |
i gave
my old one to the my apt. janitor's church |
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<jley> |
We have
a lit section, with new work by a variety of women in hypermedia and
traditional print lit |
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<jley> |
theory section where Carolyn and Margie created the Progressive
Dinner Party |
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<jley> |
with
work by 39 women working in web media |
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<jley> |
Carolyn's DAC paper about Califia |
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<jley> |
the
roundtable with Shelley Jackson, N. Katherine Hayles, Marjorie
Perloff, Linda Carroli and Diane Greco |
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<jley> |
an
interview with Daniela Gioseffi ... creator of Wise Women's
Web |
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<jley> |
and a
well published poet |
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<Surd> |
It's a
huge issue. |
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<Surd> |
How
long did you work on it? |
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<jley> |
and an interview with Judy Malloy in the
Means ... and, in the Means section, articles by
geniwate, T. Dunn, and Deena Larsen. |
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<jley> |
I
started in November ...we started in November |
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<Djuna> |
the
roundtable was a really nice cap to it all - not just showing the
work, but some of the thoughts behind it, fueling it - |
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<Surd> |
We? |
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<jley> |
I
started working on my sections ... Margie and Carolyn on the D
Party |
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<cguertin> |
the
roundtable being the wallpaper, as it were, behind the thinking
fueling the rest of the work |
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<Djuna> |
to have
done that alone you'd have to be superwoman |
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<jley> |
yes
couldn't have been done |
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<mez> |
jen>>how have u found the actual process
of collating the work? musta Been fascinating... |
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<jley> |
the
issue is a kind of testament to net.wurk |
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<cguertin> |
and
vision |
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<jley> |
shucks
... |
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<Surd> |
Yes,
amazing issue... |
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<jley> |
I do
this because I find it incredibly satisfying to find work by a variety of
people and find ways to put it into a larger context |
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<jley> |
which I
think is what propelled what Carolyn and Margie did too
|
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<jley> |
and
Carolyn's trAce Assemblage ... which is the heart of the Dinner
Party |
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<Sue> |
i am
always stunned by the connectivity between ppl working in this
medium |
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<Djuna> |
it has a very warm community atmosphere - like
a dinner party ... |
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<Surd> |
How does this relate to Carolyn's trace Assemblage?
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<cguertin> |
the
curse of the web is its size. finding each other, finding key works
remains difficult. hopefully this issue rectifies that a bit.
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<Sue> |
seems
very little rivalry and antagonism - all working together
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<jley> |
carolyn
do you want to answer that?? |
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<cguertin> |
sure |
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<mez> |
sue>
for sure... |
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<Sue> |
i want
to say how proud we are to house that collection, btw |
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<cguertin> |
Assemblage is a large scale gallery with
hundreds of works in multiple languages |
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<jley> |
it's an
amazing resource |
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<cguertin> |
the
dinner party pulls out some highlights, celebrates the diversity (in
English) |
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<mez> |
Assemblage is a great re:sauce...i haven't seen
anitink like it else.where on the net |
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<cguertin> |
from
Assemblage's overwhelming mass |
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<cguertin> |
it's
the product of quite a few year's work |
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<Loss> |
What is
the Assemblage URL? |
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<margie> |
Assemblage must be the Only place where so much
of the web is brought together. |
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<cguertin> |
i
started building it because there was nowhere to go to find out what
women were doing |
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<jley> |
and
then the Dinner Party gestalt was a unique way to present the works
in this issue |
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<cguertin> |
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<Sue> |
do you
find the urls to be very transient? that is always difficult
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<jley> |
Margie
take bows please :)) |
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*Sue smiles at margie |
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<margie> |
thanks
to Jennifer and Carolyn for cooking up dinner with me! |
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<cguertin> |
the
urls don't change as much as one would expect. commercial sites seem
to expire more frequently than art and personal ones. |
| [12:27] |
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*margie beams with pleasure |
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<cguertin> |
Margie,
my hat off to you in role as chef. |
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<Sue> |
Teri
hoskin will love this idea - she was a cook for years |
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<margie> |
yes,
Carolyn is right--people have a great longevity on the web--Loss, so
much better than print, in some ways! |
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<cguertin> |
and
hail to the (editor-in-) chief who made it all possible...
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<jley> |
frankly
... with the Dinner Party and the lit section ... with works by
Claire, Mez, Sue ... just to mention the people here ...
|
| [12:27] |
<Sue> |
we
hatched the noon quilt sitting round a pretend kitchen table
drinking pretend wine! |
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<jley> |
the
darn thing is huge |
| [12:28] |
<Surd> |
Yes, tis scrumptious. There is also new work for
this issue, yes? |
| [12:28] |
<jley> |
Yes
Claire, mez, Sue ... do you want to talk about your work?
|
| [12:28] |
<cguertin> |
kathy
rae huffman also worked with the dinner party metaphor for the faces
list |
| [12:28] |
<mez> |
sure |
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<Loss> |
Assemblage looks great! |
| [12:28] |
<cguertin> |
* blush
|
| [12:29] |
<Djuna> |
but
lord it's hard to find what you want! you have to weed through so
much dross and commercialism these days - i really like that so much
significant work is gathered in assemblage - |
| [12:29] |
<cguertin> |
|
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<mez> |
my proj was 1 i've had going for a while...called
eall[h]ER |
| [12:29] |
<Surd> |
Claire,
your High Crimson, how did the context of this issue play into your
composition of this piece, if at all?
|
| [12:29] |
<Loss> |
I'll
have to make an EPC feature of it at some point soon. |
| [12:29] |
<Sue> |
i'd
like to say about my piece that jen's invitation came at a perfect
time |
| [12:29] |
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*Sue waits for claire to answer |
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<Djuna> |
ted's
been doing that for years |
| [12:29] |
<cguertin> |
i try
to be careful in my selections, try to privilege work that expands
boundaries--language, art and programming... |
| [12:29] |
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*mez waits for Claire to answer 2;) |
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<Djuna> |
it's a tribute to my love of the gender really
- when I was first invited the title of the issue was 'women and
gender' |
| [12:30] |
<mez> |
*listening to Claire* |
