| [14:00] |
<glory> |
jackdaw flies onto steve's bookcase
|
| [14:00] |
<Cleo> |
it's
just moving into their turf i imagine - as if anyone had 'ownership'
of a form! |
| [14:01] |
<Surd> |
usually it is not lettristic, for instance,
down to the letter where the image can explode from perhaps more
dominatively than from a longer text... |
| [14:01] |
<glory> |
jackdaw:
|
| [14:01] |
<Surd> |
glory
bless you |
| [14:02] |
<steve_d> |
it's
pretty dusty up there |
| [14:02] |
<Cleo> |
do
you feel any particular allegience steve? |
| [14:02] |
<glory> |
it's
the dust |
| [14:02] |
<PbN> |
Steve, you have heard of 'code poetry' -- a
notion that interests me -- you, too? |
| [14:03] |
<PbN> |
'code
po' might be related to lang po?!? anyone? |
| [14:03] |
<steve_d> |
not
allegiance, as such, but i tend to avoid "philosophy" as
poetry |
| [14:03] |
<Cleo> |
hmmm
... |
| [14:04] |
<Cleo> |
what
do you mean by that philos. as poetry) |
| [14:04] |
<Cleo> |
(philos. as poetry - sorry |
| [14:04] |
<steve_d> |
first
heard of "code poetry" on webartery but i think i was aware of its
existance - a tendency, perhaps |
| [14:05] |
<Cleo> |
re:
content |
| [14:05] |
<Cleo> |
? |
| [14:05] |
<steve_d> |
philos = thoughts |
| [14:06] |
|
*Cleo grumble grumble ... |
| [14:06] |
<PbN> |
yes,
possibly (heavily?) connected with programming code... |
| [14:06] |
<joecow> |
claire I think there is some so-called langpo
that leaves people cold because of its overtly ideological or
otherwise intellectual content |
| [14:07] |
<Cleo> |
i
think so ted - both more about form than content. even solely maybe
... |
| [14:07] |
<PbN> |
no |
| [14:07] |
<steve_d> |
bits
of code that speak, log files on the hd, etc |
| [14:08] |
<steve_d> |
when
the interface collapses and the code shows thru |
| [14:08] |
<joecow> |
i
wasn't sure what "code poetry" refers to |
| [14:08] |
|
*PbN does not see code po as more form than
content... nor as less |
| [14:08] |
<joecow> |
i can
see at least two distinct tendencies: |
| [14:08] |
<steve_d> |
i
agree there, ted |
| [14:08] |
<joecow> |
exteriorizing code as visual object
|
| [14:08] |
<PbN> |
when
code shows through -- like Jim's 'neath text'... |
| [14:09] |
<Surd> |
Yes,
your work has an emotional or experiential, sometimes lyrical
basis... love and relationships... fear and pain... yet it is also
related via the neath and the feel to 'poetry of ideas'?
|
| [14:09] |
<joecow> |
as in
many of ted's pages or brian lennon's or jodi's |
| [14:09] |
<joecow> |
and
on the other hand |
| [14:09] |
<joecow> |
the
poetics of "architecture" of code, as jim has it |
| [14:10] |
<Cleo> |
but
the image is content, I think - as an abstract - I believe i was
unclear earlier |
| [14:10] |
<joecow> |
ie -
the beauty of the working code itself |
| [14:10] |
<PbN> |
structure itself can be elegance, too
|
| [14:10] |
<steve_d> |
text
extracted from binary files - just as is comes dislocated, and
... |
| [14:11] |
<Cleo> |
and
that's a meaning/content. but, for lots of lang poets it's not, you
must admit. |
| [14:11] |
<glory> |
jackdaw pecks at spine of a ted hughes
book |
| [14:11] |
<steve_d> |
meaningful nevertheless |
| [14:12] |
<steve_d> |
crow |
| [14:12] |
<joecow> |
yes,
ted - my only hesitation re this route is the fact that, for all the
great coding webartists are doing, working programmers are just
doing way more amazing and also beautiful stuff |
| [14:12] |
<PbN> |
yes |
| [14:12] |
<PbN> |
but
not usually as interesting |
| [14:13] |
<PbN> |
I'm a
working prog, too |
| [14:13] |
<Cleo> |
i
don't know - i've been looked at the 'in crowds' net-art work - it's
generally pretty banal and redundent, and ugly too. |
| [14:13] |
<joecow> |
point
taken |
| [14:13] |
|
*PbN differentiates work and art |
| [14:14] |
<Surd> |
who
are you thinkig of, joe? |
| [14:14] |
<joecow> |
surd
: as far as coding goes? |
| [14:14] |
<Surd> |
yes |
| [14:14] |
<PbN> |
C,
agree, mostly |
| [14:15] |
<joecow> |
well,
my point would be that there is an artistic interest in code for
code's sake - |
| [14:15] |
<joecow> |
as in
your work in stirfry texts |
| [14:15] |
<Cleo> |
of
course there are exceptions to every ...) |
| [14:15] |
<joecow> |
or
some of ted's pieces |
| [14:15] |
<joecow> |
or
jodi or m9ndfuck or mediaboy |
| [14:16] |
<joecow> |
i get
very wrapped up in the structure of my own code |
| [14:16] |
<joecow> |
this
is interesting to me |
| [14:16] |
<joecow> |
but
sometimes i think |
| [14:16] |
<Cleo> |
... |
| [14:16] |
<joecow> |
if a
person who does some hardcore database or AI programming
|
| [14:16] |
<joecow> |
were
to look at it, |
| [14:17] |
<joecow> |
it
just would not seem very impressive, purely as code |
| [14:17] |
<joecow> |
i
don't know if this matters |
| [14:17] |
<joecow> |
just
thinking out loud |
| [14:17] |
<joecow> |
i'll
shut up now |
| [14:17] |
<glory> |
jackdaw hops onto floor in search of
crumbs |
| [14:17] |
<eliza> |
Steve, the visuals in your Debris are kind of
like the way concrete poets used type elements, rather than being
'pictures' aren't they? Will you move more towards actual pictures
do you think/intend? |
| [14:17] |
<Cleo> |
so
what? we're talking apples and oranges here i think. |
| [14:17] |
<PbN> |
agreed, but no need to stop, Joe |
| [14:18] |
<Cleo> |
intent |
| [14:18] |
<steve_d> |
i do
intend to use pictures - i'm working on a couple of things
now |
| [14:18] |
<Cleo> |
context |
| [14:18] |
<Surd> |
right, code as a thing in itself... what is
lovely? |
| [14:19] |
<joecow> |
yes I
guess intent would be the distinguishing factor |
| [14:19] |
<joecow> |
in
that your hardcore coder is not seeing what we might |
| [14:19] |
<joecow> |
or is
certainly not mobilizing their code to the same ends |
| [14:19] |
<glory> |
jackdaw: lovely is code |
| [14:19] |
<joecow> |
which
comes around to the content question, claire |
| [14:20] |
<Cleo> |
messy
messy ... |
| [14:20] |
<joecow> |
what
is lovely.... |
| [14:20] |
<joecow> |
messy
is lovely? |
| [14:21] |
<Cleo> |
messes can be lovely:) |
| [14:21] |
<Surd> |
Actually, I have had occasion to appreciate
*just how good* some of us are recently in code by contrast with
some work I've seen by pro teams concerning the details, attention
to the details... |
| [14:21] |
<Cleo> |
Raushenberg ... Schwitters ... i'm swooning
.... delight.. |
| [14:22] |
<joecow> |
yes
or Beckett said something re form to let the mess in |
| [14:22] |
<glory> |
jackdaw messes on the floor |
| [14:22] |
<Surd> |
I
mean, I think that the care and attention and detail of some of the
coding work I see in webart is more than you get from people working
for the man. |
| [14:22] |
<steve_d> |
access codes for the unconscious |
| [14:22] |
<Cleo> |
I'm
amazed at the coding messes some people send cauldron - people who
should 'know' better ... |
| [14:22] |
<PbN> |
here,
code is content, which is to say, they are indistinguishable, often.
And form, often *is* content vis-a-vis HTML programming...
|
| [14:23] |
<PbN> |
Mark
Amerika has written some good things about code/content/form in
cyberspace |
| [14:23] |
<PbN> |
Well,
I thought they were pretty good |
| [14:24] |
<Cleo> |
we
believe you ted, it's okay ... |
| [14:24] |
<PbN> |
:) |
| [14:24] |
<Cleo> |
lol! |
| [14:24] |
<Surd> |
The
knowledge of javascript is really good, for instance, and of
dhtml. |
| [14:25] |
<PbN> |
I
just am not so sure it is desirable/possible to separate things on
the old lines |
| [14:25] |
<Cleo> |
(i
LOVE my cyberspace friends!} [ btw] |
| [14:25] |
<Surd> |
The
only non-pro element is attention to cross-browser and
cross-platform issues, knowledge of gotchas between platforms and
browsers. |
| [14:25] |
<PbN> |
that's a pro-job thing, Jim |
| [14:26] |
<glory> |
love
is a code |
| [14:26] |
<PbN> |
and
code a love |
| [14:26] |
<Surd> |
yeah,
Ted, definitely |
| [14:26] |
<joecow> |
lust |
| [14:26] |
<steve_d> |
envy |
| [14:26] |
<glory> |
lust
is mess |
| [14:26] |
<PbN> |
so,
anyone PC? |
| [14:26] |
<PbN> |
;) |
| [14:26] |
<Cleo> |
you
know what's strange, is browsers seem to be almost age oriented -
lately looking at all this work by 'whiz kids' and lot's of it is
"IE only" |
| [14:27] |
<eliza> |
&
Steve's optimised for IE... must be a whiz kids, or else his kids
are |
| [14:27] |
<Cleo> |
! |
| [14:28] |
<joecow> |
IE
really pulled out front with the v5 document object model
|
| [14:28] |
<joecow> |
i
still think NS is a better browser |
| [14:28] |
<steve_d> |
my
kids are playstation and megadrive emulator only at the
moment |
| [14:28] |
<Surd> |
How
old are they, Steve? |
| [14:28] |
<Cleo> |
well,
it can do more i've heard - but it seems a bit undemocratic to make
non cross-browser work - if you can help it that is. |
| [14:28] |
<glory> |
jackdaw: caw caw |
| [14:29] |
<steve_d> |
10
and 11 |
| [14:29] |
<Surd> |
What
is megadrive emulator? |
| [14:29] |
<Cleo> |
games
... |
| [14:29] |
<steve_d> |
emulators run play console games on a pc
|
| [14:30] |
<Surd> |
ah... |
| [14:30] |
<Cleo> |
urgh
... |
| [14:30] |
<joecow> |
claire i really wonder how many people actually
have only one or the other |
| [14:30] |
<Cleo> |
brb
- |
| [14:30] |
<eliza> |
I bet
they're writing all his code... |
| [14:30] |
<Surd> |
ehehe |
| [14:30] |
|
***noname has joined #defib |
| [14:30] |
|
***glory has quit IRC (Connection reset by
peer.) |
| [14:30] |
<steve_d> |
i
favour msie for historical reasons but i find it pretty good
|
| [14:31] |
<PbN> |
bird
overboard, Jim |
| [14:31] |
<Surd> |
get
the net |
| [14:31] |
<PbN> |
I'm
NS all the way |
| [14:31] |
<steve_d> |
i
wonder of we will eventually have emulators for old web works
|
| [14:32] |
<noname> |
hi
everybody |
